Thayos wrote:
If what Kachi says is really what they're teaching in game design school these days, that really helps me understand why games these days are so boring. Seriously, anyone, go play Guild Wars 2 and tell me that's really an interesting battle system. It flat-out sucks. Solo play is super easy, and there's really no point to play in parties. Even when people do play in parties, they just kind of zerg the same thing, because everyone is good at everything. There are no real strengths or weaknesses. It's like the little-league soccer of MMORPGs.
I have no doubt that Kachi's opinions on balance are based on math. That doesn't mean it's the optimal approach though. Obviously, it depends on what you want from your game; other approaches to game design will also be based on math, too.
Whichever math you choose to follow, the bottom line is that FFXIV should not be (and, thankfully, will not be) a game where a white mage can go toe-to-toe with a damage dealer. That's just not realistic, and it doesn't make any sense. A damage dealer should win that fight pretty quickly 100 percent of the time. I'm trying to imagine a real-world example of a soldier versus a field medic... the soldier wins that fight every time... but soldiers need field medics to survive.
You add "balance" to the confrontation by adding different players (or, in this case, monsters) with their own strengths and weaknesses to each side of the battle. THAT is how you encourage interesting, involved PvE battles. That's the difference between Final Fantasy (which has always emphasized party play) and everything else on the market, which is catering to the individual. That's why SE would be making a HUGE mistake to balance FFXIV on PvP principles.
Edited, Jun 1st 2013 3:54pm by Thayos
I have no doubt that Kachi's opinions on balance are based on math. That doesn't mean it's the optimal approach though. Obviously, it depends on what you want from your game; other approaches to game design will also be based on math, too.
Whichever math you choose to follow, the bottom line is that FFXIV should not be (and, thankfully, will not be) a game where a white mage can go toe-to-toe with a damage dealer. That's just not realistic, and it doesn't make any sense. A damage dealer should win that fight pretty quickly 100 percent of the time. I'm trying to imagine a real-world example of a soldier versus a field medic... the soldier wins that fight every time... but soldiers need field medics to survive.
You add "balance" to the confrontation by adding different players (or, in this case, monsters) with their own strengths and weaknesses to each side of the battle. THAT is how you encourage interesting, involved PvE battles. That's the difference between Final Fantasy (which has always emphasized party play) and everything else on the market, which is catering to the individual. That's why SE would be making a HUGE mistake to balance FFXIV on PvP principles.
Edited, Jun 1st 2013 3:54pm by Thayos
Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
If balance is so much fun, then trains are rollercoasters.
Archmage Callinon wrote:
There's also the fact that 1v1 balancing is just about the dumbest thing you can attempt.
There's no way to do it without making the classes carbon copies of each other. MMOs are meant to be played in groups. And there's a very good reason why Blizzard stopped caring about even their 2v2 arena bracket, and doesn't offer a 1v1 bracket.
There's no way to do it without making the classes carbon copies of each other. MMOs are meant to be played in groups. And there's a very good reason why Blizzard stopped caring about even their 2v2 arena bracket, and doesn't offer a 1v1 bracket.
Oyvey, all that and people are still confusing role and balance. Look, GW2 sucks because everyone has the same basic ROLE. The classes are not even balanced. That's why I specifically said I didn't want to use it as an example--it's not a good example. If that's what you're picturing, then stop--just... stop.
If you're thinking it affects gameplay in any meaningful way, then you're wrong, and you haven't grasped a single thing about statistical balancing. White Mages still heal, Paladins still tank-- party dynamics and roles remain intact. The ONLY real difference in using PvP to conduct statistical balancing is that you don't need any specific class unless the encounter is designed for you to need it.
@Thayos: How on earth do you figure that it's unrealistic for a White Mage to go toe-to-toe with a damage dealer? You realize that that can happen in the FF world at any time? Put a high level healer against a low level DD, done. A White Mage uses MAGIC. Narratively, that magic can be as strong as you want it to be--strong enough to undo the damage that a warrior does. That's the convenient thing about magic--it's a narrative Cure V for the problem of realism.