My idea for ending speed runs once and for allFollow

I'm just now coming to the point in the story where speed runs are happening, and I know that the community is pretty divided on the topic. I'm personally against it, because it just flat-out ruins the experience for a story focused player or really anyone new. Here's my suggestion to forever destroy the concept:

Boss is dead, chest pops, hidden calculation happens (% of mobs killed in dungeon x tomestones = what you get), if 75% of mobs present weren't killed then no reward

Easy examples: Castrum Meridianum normally drops 100 philosophy, but your group skipped all the trash and only killed what they had to = no reward. 80% of mobs killed = 80 tomes, 100% killed = 100 tomes.

Thoughts?

not the worst idea but its too punitive.


i'd prefer something that gives players something extra over the 100 tomes to incentivize killing the trash. Like having trash randomly drop actual loot (crafting mats/gil/whatever)

i just keep thinking about how this wasn't ever an issue in XI salvage, mostly because killing the "trash" was part of the mechanics of the dungeons, not to mention the "trash" dropped things people wanted.

why can't SE take a page from their own (successful) playbook?

I like this. Same thing w/ dynamis too, mobs dropped AF and coins.

I have a tank friend that will tell a CM group to skip cut scenes. I yell at him on VENT stfu and let them watch b/c the rest of the group is going to streamroll anyway and I say in the party we are about to steam roll just follow

Give people an incentive to kill trash and add gating (e.g. trash drops key to unlock door), that way people have to kill that trash but don't feel like they are wasting time doing it. Spiritbinding is obviously not enough incentive.

The problem is inherent in the simple formula:

Unrewarding Skippable Trash + Shiny token at end = Speed Runs = Fracture = Toxic Community

There is no incentive to kill trash nor is there incentive to do other content even it offered the exact same rewards because pseudo-min/max "speed runners" will determine that it take ten seconds less to do dungeon A compared to dungeon B, the perception spreads that B is "harder" than A (whether or not it is or isn't isn't really relevant once the perception spread) and so NOBODY is willing to do anything but "Speed runs" of A.

GW2 had the same problem and it made dungeon crawling not fun. Everyone only did a few specific paths to farm tokens/gold and on those paths they ran past everything (sometimes even bosses) and finding groups for the other paths took forever. For some paths/dungeons like Arah and Crucible you may as well not even bother trying let alone try farming tokens from them for a skin you like unless you have a static party, most people do the story mode once then forget about them because they don't want skins or achievements they just want the stats (most of which can be obtained from a few different sources).

How anyone can consider a system like that (where like 80%+ of the content is simply ignored) successful is mind boggling. For some reason SE thought it a good idea to copy this fail system, part of me wonders if they actually ever experienced it because it has the EXACT same "problems", e.g. it breeds toxics, as their own system. I was in Halatali and was already hearing "we can skip this stuff" and began to cringe because I already realized what was in store for me later.

Edited, Sep 27th 2013 3:33pm by KingoGoodbomber

A simple solution is to figure how long speed runs take and make the trash drop the equivalent reward but in less total time.

e.g. Assume a speed run takes 20 minutes and rewards X currency. Make it so if you spend 18 minutes killing trash you get another X currency. Or give the trash a loot table like WoW (at least when I played it) with things people want, e.g. accessories, or even cosmetic stuff like mounts and will take time to kill for a chance.

People will do the math and figure out it is more rewarding to clear the trash and so they will start clearing it.

I've seen this concept work. Good idea.

Don't know what the trash exactly is in those runs yet. But I would think it would be more fun if they weren't just roll-over-and-die. Maybe something you can do with skill to end the fights faster?

This will never happen the way you have described. If anything, they would give you bonus for clearing every mob and regular for anything else. I think that would actually be a good option.

I am pretty sure they will start by deciding the minimum amount of effort they would like groups to partake and find a way to force tha. A lot of times this is with some sort of gatekeeper.

We're pretty much all saying the same thing at this point. It sounds like most people have no issue spending the time killing everything in the dungeon as long as there is a tangible reward or chance for reward. This is like, basic game design.


Also, yes, there really really needs to be another viable place to farm ToMs.

Edited, Sep 27th 2013 4:02pm by Llester

except at this point, we're talking less about CM/Prae (which can be done in ~20minutes) and much much more about AK, which cannot.

Unfortunately, this doesn't address the problem. Despite what people say, it's not the mobs that are the problem. It is the people. If you have a grinder, people want to get through it as fast as possible. As a result, people will hit it as fast as they can as often as they can.

So, you make it so people have to kill every mob? Now there are more choke points where people have to pull from, and to, but you have to operate just as fast. SpoilerGet mobs, pull to cannon, kill. Grab next group, rinse and repeat.

In the case of CM, Spoileronce you have the first set of cannons open, it would just turn into, bring everything there to kill it faster. And repeat with each set.

There is nothing SE can really do to slow people down. As the whole point of the seals system *IS* to slow people down, and the net reaction is to just grind faster.

The fracture in the community is self imposed. I for one make it a point to walk people through CM on their first run, and even got into a fight with my wife because of the newb wanting to watch the cut scenes.

I have also been in parties where the tank will pull no matter what (we had a link, and he pulled a boss, people died), and just left the party.

I have seen tanks and whms leave because the run was going too slow.

People need to relax and enjoy the ride, or get with a static group and just zerg blast it themselves. The imposing speed on others thing was old before it started.

I see WHY they did it though, and that's to both give new level 50 players a place get geared and give higher level players a reason to help them.

I think we'll see a drastic change in this come 2.1, when they add the Random Duty rewards. We have no details, but I imagine that you queue up for "Random" and get put into whatever is needed at the time, and then get some ToP and ToM for the effort. I would much rather this, as I love many of the dungeons but there just isn't a reason to run them until Hard Modes are added.