Alright, so I started doing Ifrit Hard Mode tonight with a couple friends. My first try wasn't the best - I was put on stun duty and needless to say I wasn't doing it well. But after the second and third times I had it down no problem. I was only stunning when Ifrit casted Eruption and ignored the Plume attack.
However, other people in the party were using abilities which stunned Ifrit. According to what I've read, each time you stun him it increases his resistance to subsequent stuns. I tried explaining why I was missing the eruption stuns (because I was getting resisted) but they continued to blame me for it.
So my question is this: is this information accurate? If other party members perform a stun, does it increase the chance that Ifrit will resist my own stun? Moreover, how do I explain this to party members complaining about the stuns?
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Ifrit Hard Mode - StunningFollow
It's accurate. It's more easily seen on other abilities like sleep.
Cast it once: 30 second sleep
Cast it again on the same monster after he wakes before the 30 second window: 15 second sleep
Cast it once more: I think 8 or 9 seconds?
It's called diminishing returns.Just think if they weren't in place: you could stun not only Ifrit's eruptions but also the plumes. Hell, you could keep him 'stunlocked' with enough people who had stun.
So they decided to stick DR in.
Cast it once: 30 second sleep
Cast it again on the same monster after he wakes before the 30 second window: 15 second sleep
Cast it once more: I think 8 or 9 seconds?
It's called diminishing returns.Just think if they weren't in place: you could stun not only Ifrit's eruptions but also the plumes. Hell, you could keep him 'stunlocked' with enough people who had stun.
So they decided to stick DR in.
It's even worse with single target sleep (Repose) and you have to manage a particularly large pull as the WHM. Though once in a while you will get a lucky longer sleep, after a very short sleep.
THM/BLM at least get a chance on the entire crowd with each cast, You lucky Duckies.
Some days it just turns into a slow, self destructive spiral. Alternating between curing the tank, Sleeping a mob, Curing myself, sleeping a mob, re-sleeping the #3 because someone whacked it, curing the tank, re-sleeping # 3 because someone whacked it and it's taken me down to 1/3rd now... Cure-bombing myself and popping Shroud to cut my enmity again.
Of course, a slow, self destructive spiral at least gives the rest of the team time to re-establish control. Also why you'll see me obsessively Stoneskinning the tank just as the last mob in a pull dies (I hit it at a sliver of red, the cast ends as mob dies, no lost time) . in a game where fractions of a second count, not having to cure-bomb a low-def tank at the start of the fight really keeps things smooth.
Edited, Sep 11th 2013 1:10am by OtosanOokami
THM/BLM at least get a chance on the entire crowd with each cast, You lucky Duckies.
Some days it just turns into a slow, self destructive spiral. Alternating between curing the tank, Sleeping a mob, Curing myself, sleeping a mob, re-sleeping the #3 because someone whacked it, curing the tank, re-sleeping # 3 because someone whacked it and it's taken me down to 1/3rd now... Cure-bombing myself and popping Shroud to cut my enmity again.
Of course, a slow, self destructive spiral at least gives the rest of the team time to re-establish control. Also why you'll see me obsessively Stoneskinning the tank just as the last mob in a pull dies (I hit it at a sliver of red, the cast ends as mob dies, no lost time) . in a game where fractions of a second count, not having to cure-bomb a low-def tank at the start of the fight really keeps things smooth.
Edited, Sep 11th 2013 1:10am by OtosanOokami
i am not currently playing but something that i noticed in p4 beta that i am curious if it carried over or is the same for stun is when i would cast sleep after second or third time if i waited 30sec or more(never actually timed it) when i would sleep again 3rd/4th time it would be back at 30sec duration like the resistance ticked backwards after a set time or reset back. i didnt do allot of test just noticed if i didnt immediately resleep an add after it had woken up i would get the full 30 instead of 15 or less everytime.
Yes, the cooldown of the internal diminishing returns will reset over time.
Here's a good example:
Cast sleep: 30 seconds of sleep
@5 seconds left on sleep, cast freeze (it binds all targets in a targeted area) which has its own DR separate from sleep
@3 seconds left on bind, recast sleep which will give you the 15 seconds of sleep (DR for sleep is in place at this time)
@5 seconds left on sleep, cast freeze which now has a duration of around 8 seconds IIRC
@3 seconds left on bind, cast sleep once more which will give you around 8 seconds of sleep
At this point, sleep is on the diminishing returns internal cooldown. If cast again, you will receive a "Fully resisted" message
@3~4 seconds left on sleep, cast bind which will bind them for another 2 seconds or so
At this point, freeze is on the diminishing returns internal cooldown. If cast again, it will have no binding effect.
At this time, sleep's internal DR cooldown should be up and you can recast sleep which will stick for another 30 seconds.
If you want exact numbers, I'll figure them out tomorrow. This just gives you an idea of what's going.
Basically, 'stun' shares a DR internal CD with just about every other stun ability. If someone keeps using it on Ifrit, it will eventually become immune. This is why you generally have a paladin for stunning eruption.
Edited, Sep 12th 2013 12:31am by HitomeOfBismarck
Here's a good example:
Cast sleep: 30 seconds of sleep
@5 seconds left on sleep, cast freeze (it binds all targets in a targeted area) which has its own DR separate from sleep
@3 seconds left on bind, recast sleep which will give you the 15 seconds of sleep (DR for sleep is in place at this time)
@5 seconds left on sleep, cast freeze which now has a duration of around 8 seconds IIRC
@3 seconds left on bind, cast sleep once more which will give you around 8 seconds of sleep
At this point, sleep is on the diminishing returns internal cooldown. If cast again, you will receive a "Fully resisted" message
@3~4 seconds left on sleep, cast bind which will bind them for another 2 seconds or so
At this point, freeze is on the diminishing returns internal cooldown. If cast again, it will have no binding effect.
At this time, sleep's internal DR cooldown should be up and you can recast sleep which will stick for another 30 seconds.
If you want exact numbers, I'll figure them out tomorrow. This just gives you an idea of what's going.
Basically, 'stun' shares a DR internal CD with just about every other stun ability. If someone keeps using it on Ifrit, it will eventually become immune. This is why you generally have a paladin for stunning eruption.
Edited, Sep 12th 2013 12:31am by HitomeOfBismarck
Zicash wrote:
Alright, so I started doing Ifrit Hard Mode tonight with a couple friends. My first try wasn't the best - I was put on stun duty and needless to say I wasn't doing it well. But after the second and third times I had it down no problem. I was only stunning when Ifrit casted Eruption and ignored the Plume attack.
However, other people in the party were using abilities which stunned Ifrit. According to what I've read, each time you stun him it increases his resistance to subsequent stuns. I tried explaining why I was missing the eruption stuns (because I was getting resisted) but they continued to blame me for it.
So my question is this: is this information accurate? If other party members perform a stun, does it increase the chance that Ifrit will resist my own stun? Moreover, how do I explain this to party members complaining about the stuns?
However, other people in the party were using abilities which stunned Ifrit. According to what I've read, each time you stun him it increases his resistance to subsequent stuns. I tried explaining why I was missing the eruption stuns (because I was getting resisted) but they continued to blame me for it.
So my question is this: is this information accurate? If other party members perform a stun, does it increase the chance that Ifrit will resist my own stun? Moreover, how do I explain this to party members complaining about the stuns?
You were right. Anyone stunning will create resists for you. Most often you see idiot dragoons with that one jump that stuns and they aren't aware of it.
Ok, thanks guys. It's just a little annoying to be blamed for not stunning when I'm doing what I"m supposed to but still getting resisted.
Louiscool wrote:
You were right. Anyone stunning will create resists for you. Most often you see idiot dragoons with that one jump that stuns and they aren't aware of it.
As a Dragoon-focused player, may I just say that Spineshatter Dive isn't even that good of a stun attack to begin with. Yeah, it does stun an enemy, but the problem is that it only goes in to effect at the end of the animation, and by that point they've likely already charged their attack (the animation takes so long that you can't honestly rely on it for stunning special moves). You honestly either need to be lucky (they were going to charge an attack right as you hit Spineshatter Dive) or clairvoyant for it to be effective.
Satisiun wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
You were right. Anyone stunning will create resists for you. Most often you see idiot dragoons with that one jump that stuns and they aren't aware of it.
As a Dragoon-focused player, may I just say that Spineshatter Dive isn't even that good of a stun attack to begin with. Yeah, it does stun an enemy, but the problem is that it only goes in to effect at the end of the animation, and by that point they've likely already charged their attack (the animation takes so long that you can't honestly rely on it for stunning special moves). You honestly either need to be lucky (they were going to charge an attack right as you hit Spineshatter Dive) or clairvoyant for it to be effective.
Agreed, I really only use it when I'm soloing to close on the mob. Using it in a Dungeon is not useful in any meaningful way that I have come across yet...
Do Arcanists pet's doing stun also count? because I believe Ifrit-egi and Titan-egi both have stun moves, so if you were to bring an Arcanist in would they have to work without a pet?
jaggars wrote:
Satisiun wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
You were right. Anyone stunning will create resists for you. Most often you see idiot dragoons with that one jump that stuns and they aren't aware of it.
As a Dragoon-focused player, may I just say that Spineshatter Dive isn't even that good of a stun attack to begin with. Yeah, it does stun an enemy, but the problem is that it only goes in to effect at the end of the animation, and by that point they've likely already charged their attack (the animation takes so long that you can't honestly rely on it for stunning special moves). You honestly either need to be lucky (they were going to charge an attack right as you hit Spineshatter Dive) or clairvoyant for it to be effective.
Agreed, I really only use it when I'm soloing to close on the mob. Using it in a Dungeon is not useful in any meaningful way that I have come across yet...
it's useful in a dungeon for closing the gap as well. just don't use it if it's going to needlessly build resists on something important. or do use it on something important if you can time it right. or just use it on trash.
Skaditoo wrote:
Do Arcanists pet's doing stun also count? because I believe Ifrit-egi and Titan-egi both have stun moves, so if you were to bring an Arcanist in would they have to work without a pet?
I won't say yes or no. I don't know for sure. However good Arcanists will have no problem using their pet manually. They can set it to auto-attack, and only use moves when they say so.
Skaditoo wrote:
Do Arcanists pet's doing stun also count? because I believe Ifrit-egi and Titan-egi both have stun moves, so if you were to bring an Arcanist in would they have to work without a pet?
I can confirm that Arcanist pet stun moves affect the DR on Ifrit, that's why most of SMN I see (in Ifrit) is using the pet without stun or they order it manually.
Satisiun wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
You were right. Anyone stunning will create resists for you. Most often you see idiot dragoons with that one jump that stuns and they aren't aware of it.
As a Dragoon-focused player, may I just say that Spineshatter Dive isn't even that good of a stun attack to begin with. Yeah, it does stun an enemy, but the problem is that it only goes in to effect at the end of the animation, and by that point they've likely already charged their attack (the animation takes so long that you can't honestly rely on it for stunning special moves). You honestly either need to be lucky (they were going to charge an attack right as you hit Spineshatter Dive) or clairvoyant for it to be effective.
Yeah its better used as an initiator skill...or a skill that gets you in a mobs face right away. Really good for when adds spawn, or when the nail spawns it saves time running to it ect.
The stuns on dragoons are more interrupts...and the spineshatter isn't like leg sweep. You cant use spineshatter when GCD is in use, and most will macro their combos. It would be really hard to use spine shatter as an effective interrupt imo because of this...leg sweep on the 20sec CD and insta cast on the other hand...very useable...not very effective imo but you can always use it when you need it (granted its off CD)
Basically dragoons are nothing more than single target DPS, don't expect much else out of them, and really they should concentrate on just that in an 8 man group...since youll have more than enough CC/Interrrupts from other classes that do it better. I just see dragoons stepping on toes tring to stun.
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