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A few questions concerning Jobs in the loreFollow

#1 Jul 31 2013 at 4:40 AM Rating: Excellent
First off:I never had a console so I'm relatively new to Final Fantasy. I also did not play FFXIV before the ARR beta.

I have a few questions concerning how the FFXIV Jobs make sense in the lore of Final Fantasy.
Starting off with the Black Mage as example:
Black Mage, requires Thaumaturge level 30 and Pugilist level 15. Can use Pugilist and Archer abilities.
So.. Pugilist is some Monk-like melee-class as I understand it. Personally I would have thought that the Black Mage is a combination of the Thaumaturge(30) and Arcanist(15). Especially after reading this:
In days long past, there existed an occult and arcane art known as black magic[...]
It just doesn't make much sense to me. Is there a lore-reason for this?
Secondly, the Black Mage can use Archer abilities. Why not make it so that the Black Mage can also be created using the Archer class instead of the Pugilist? Does that make sense?
I would also do similar things for (almost) all jobs. (like White Mage being made using Conjurer + Gladiator or Pugilist)
Then there are apparently jobs like Blue Mage and Red Mage that are maybe coming in an expansion. I don't know what exactly they are supposed to be. Could a Red Mage be a combination of Thaumaturge and Arcanist, this being the reason why Black Mage is not?

Just one last thing:
I personally would like an Archer using offensive magic. The Bard job sounds very supportive though. Do you think it would be possible lore-wise that there is something like an Arcane- or Black Archer still coming? Those being a combination of Archer(30) and Arcanist(15) or Thaumaturge(15)?

It would be awesome if some of you guys would share their wisdom to enlighten me!
#2 Jul 31 2013 at 5:06 AM Rating: Good
763 posts
I dunno. The Red Mage, to me, has always been about the perfect mixture of battle, and the arts of white and black magic. At least it was in prior Final Fantasy Series. I will always be a Red Mage at heart, and until they put it in FF14, then I'll play White Mage. I just hope they allow job switches when new classes are added down the road. Would kinda suck to have to stay Conjurer, Thaurmage, etc until expansion just to have the classes.
#3 Jul 31 2013 at 5:10 AM Rating: Good
Outdated info. As of Beta Phase 3, the BLM could no longer cross-class Pugilist. It can still cross class certain Archer abilities. Ones that increases damage of your next ability, for example.

In P3, we could only cross class Archer, so I'm thinking BLM's new second cross class is of Arcanist.
#4 Jul 31 2013 at 5:10 AM Rating: Good
676 posts
First off, welcome to the FF and ZAM community.

I can understand how it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever when it comes to having pugilist as a "requirement" when unlocking black mage. It does seem rather counter intuitive. While they were updating the game when the servers were still up, they initially only had the classes. Pugilist, thaumaturge, etc... They eventually released the jobs that branched off the classes. These jobs were meant to fill a role in a party and each one would be a more potent version of its corresponding class. They have designed the classes to be mainly used for solo purposes and thus will be able to use many cross class abilities. They probably intended for black mage to use several pugilist cross class abilities. Every job requires it's corresponding class to be evel 30 and a 2nd class to be level 15 before you can unlock the job. Every job has a different combination needed to be unlocked. This was during 1.0 and may have changed during the development of ARR. Just because it was this way before, doesn't mean they've kept it this way. Also, the reason none of the jobs require arcanist except for summoner and scholar is that arcanist, scholar, and summoner are all brand new jobs/classes that they are adding in for the relaunch of the game as ARR.

They wont be making it possible to unlock the same job with different combinations of classes. For example, Black mage will always use the same 2 classes needed to unlock it. Not thaumaturge + any other class. If this was the case, why bother making a 2nd class even a requirement? With the cross class abilities, you can mage an archer with offensive magic if you choose to. The initial spells for thaumaturge were able to be used on any class or job. As long as the class doesn't say it "requires" any specific type of weapon, it can be used on any class or job. Also, some abilities are limited to disciples of war or disciples of magic. If you choose to, you can have an archer with both offensive and curative magic. It's really up to you how your character works with the cross class abilities. Some work well together, others not so much. Do keep in mind that archers aren't meant to be mainly magic users, so their magic point pool will be rather low. Also, their magic potency wont be as high as it would be for a disciple of magic.

As for red and blue mage, we honetly don't know anything about it. Yoshi knows that those are jobs that people want to see in the future, but other than that, we don't know anything more. After the launch of ARR, we really wont expect to see anymore classes or jobs until the next expansion. As it was in 1.0, the Bard job was meant as a support class. You are correct in thinking it seems that way. It's not the best DD and it's not the best healer, but it does have abilities that enhance both of those. I mainly played bard, so I was always the guy who made everyone else better. They were very important in the party make up for much of the content. This may change though with the release of ARR.
#5 Jul 31 2013 at 5:11 AM Rating: Excellent
197 posts
1) Some of the "odd" requirements are a hangover from 1.0. There was no Arcanist there, so when BLM came in, they needed a second class to act as the "secondary" for it. PUG has "elemental" stances later in the levelling cycle, and lore-wise BLM has been all about wielding elemental magics to wreak total destruction. It's a weak link, but the best I can do atm.

2) Replace bolded "or" with "and." You can use the primary class abilities, and the cross-classable abilities from the secondary class AND one other. So BLM can use all THM abilities, as well as 5 (@ level 50) cross-classable abilities total from PUG & ACH.

3ish) How the expansion jobs will relate to classes is an ongoing debate. Red Mage lore-wise is a melee-caster hybrid, using a sword (epee-style) and having some damage & healing spells, but specialising in debuffing. Given this, it is likely that Arcanist or Conjurer may be a secondary class. However, the armoury system dictates that the weapon determines the class/job. Therefore, we either need a) a new sword-wielding, magic-using class (spellblade, rune fencer etc.), or b) RDM will use a weapon that is lore-unusual. My money is on a).
Blue mage is another issue. It is a magic user that "learns" enemy attacks, and uses them against the mob. It is also skilled in melee combat, usually with sabre-type swords. This REALLY doesn't fit with any class as it stands. My thought is that BLU & Beastmaster (pet-based combat, both charming world mobs & using summoned pets) will branch from a single class (maybe Animist).

Lastly, I don't claim to be a lore expert, but afaik there isn't a basis for a magic-slinging archer. It is possible to create (but the magic will be very weak) - just use an Archer (not using your Bard job crystal), and cross-class in your THM & ACN abilities. Unfortunately, the only magic you can bring from THM is Thunder & Thunder 2 (both DoT spells, that will be weak with Archer's INT). ACN spell list is unknown atm. In terms of your desire - unlikely. If/when ACH gets a 2nd job, it is almost certain to be Ranger - a pure DD job, with some additional monster-tracking & hunting abilities.
#6 Jul 31 2013 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
2,550 posts
I've always liked the RDM AF...
#7 Jul 31 2013 at 6:28 PM Rating: Excellent
so.. it seems that there is no confirmed info on what classes the BLM consists of, and it's most likely that it's THM+Arcanist (like I assumed), correct?

Replace bolded "or" with "and." You can use the primary class abilities, and the cross-classable abilities from the secondary class AND one other.

I get that, what I meant is that it could happen one does not like to level the one class you need to unlock your job. And when abilities can be shared with another class that does not require to be lvl'd for the job, why not make it so that this class can be lvld instead of the other to unlock the job in the first place? An example for this would be: I want to be a BLM, I am lvl 30 THM and don't want to lvl Pugilist to 15, instead I just lvl Archer to 15 to unlock the BLM job.
Well anyway it doesn't really matter, it was just a thought. It wouldn't make much sense if the class combination is better like with the White Mage: CNJ + GLA.

Either way, thank you for your responses! They were pretty helpful. Honestly I did not expect that. I guess I played WoW for too long :-/

btw.. I'm european and english is only my 2nd language, I hope I could communicate properly ;-) I propably won't visit this forum again anytime soon, but thanks again for your responses!
#8 Jul 31 2013 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
6,899 posts
sveb36 wrote:
Either way, thank you for your responses! They were pretty helpful. Honestly I did not expect that. I guess I played WoW for too long :-/

btw.. I'm european and english is only my 2nd language, I hope I could communicate properly ;-) I propably won't visit this forum again anytime soon, but thanks again for your responses!

Hopefully you will come back. This forum is full of lots of useful information about the game, and will only have even more once the game goes live. I've been a zam lurker for almost 10 years now and it's still my favorite gaming forum.
#9 Jul 31 2013 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
This is a rebuilt game so not everything makes logical sense. PUG is nothing more than MNK, but the original director of the game didn't want to use tried and true classes at launch. MNK has been around since the very original FF game in 1989.

RDM is a mix of WHM and BLM from the very first FF game to FFXI. Again, I'm thinking that the original director of FFXIV screwed up the lore of the series so bad, there are some inconsistencies here. RDM uses a rapier style sword, a bow and arrow, and white and black magics. In FFXIV, BLM is given one of RDM's abilities which is called Convert. The only thing that makes to me why BLM needs archer is because all the classes needed some job to tie it to the advanced job. It makes no sense to have PUG and LNC required for DRG either, only LNC. CNJ(WHM) and GLD(Fighter) for PLD makes sense though so it's not all wrong according to lore.
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