PVP Worlds...Follow

How is GW2 dead ? It sold millions of copies, people are still playing the game, the PVP aspect of the game is the most polished one, it's PVP counterpart is minimal at best, there are no raids to speak off.

Swotor again sold 2 million+ copies on launch, held to 1.7 million subs for over 6 months, and is now at the 1 million mark, again they are not bleeding money, they are in fact making money, even when they went F2P, their core problem was not the unbalanced in PVP, it was the lack of end game content that did brought them problems.

I don't know where you wanna go with the hole "Exploit" thing and nerfs... I am pretty sure PVE gets far more exploits and nerfs than PVP does by a large margin, again there is no Open World PVP anymore, you cannot name me a recent game that has Open PVP, they whoever have zones in which you can engage in open PVP, i do not see a problem with that, since if you do not enjoy getting owned, then you just do not participate, nothing is lost.... Also there is no "If" This game will have PVP.

That's the only option? One group must be villains and the other must be heroes? Games with Open World PVP don't even use "villain vs hero," distinctions, and both sides are essentially "questionably good with separate ideals and goals." Again, it's a complete lack of imagination or lack of faith in the writing staff to believe that "just because it hasn't been done then it shouldn't be done because it hasn't been done!" "This franchise has never been about online play." So you must agree that Final Fantasy XI, by virtue of the "doesn't feel like" argument, doesn't feel like a Final Fantasy game either. By extension then XIV doesn't feel like a Final Fantasy game either. Here's another example: "This franchise was never about mini-games." A motorcycle chase through a highway? Submarine battles? Card games? Underwater Rugby? We just eliminated 7 through 10 because they don't "feel like Final Fantasy games." I don't see the outrage over that, though. In fact, I see excitement over it, yet those mechanics are very clearly not Final Fantasy. You know what made them "work?" A writer. Arguably another writer could have made Open World PVP work as well. We can probably eliminate every Final Fantasy that isn't Final Fantasy 1 as "not feeling like a Final Fantasy game" if we bother.

There's no such thing as "it doesn't feel like Final Fantasy." You know what does feel like Final Fantasy, though? The developers trying new things. That's the only true constant (besides the obvious similarly objects, named or otherwise). It's pretty hit or miss, but the alternative is stagnation which is infinitely worse. Just dismissing an (hypothetical) idea simply because it hasn't been done yet is hardly a good reason to not do something.

You may be right about whm holding its own in PvP because of specific PvP abilities... but I think you're confusing whm and cnj... Conjuror does have offensive spells.

In any event, I think the development team is handling PvP in FFXIV exactly as they should be. It's there for people who want to do it, but the PvP won't interfere with the core of the game. Having separate PvP abilities lets jobs retain their party roles, without blending everything together to the point that roles aren't as critical.

Can you not be a WHM and sub a class that offers offensive spells ? Or once you turn into a WHM you are unable to use offensive spells ?

Once you play ARR, you will understand what i meant by a more wowish approach.

I could argue that the FF online fanbase is smaller than what people love to give it credit too... But i have done that again, and the proof is in the pudding already so

Also SE themselves stated that this game was for the casuals, that was their goal, that is their goal, and that will continue to be their goal, and well you and i see their attempts at fanservice differently, i enjoyed IX approach, i really dislike yoshi's approach.

I am against open world PvP in any PvE core game FF or otherwise. Yet a PvP option is very important. If ARR was a single player rpg then PvP would not be Final Fantasy. This is an mmo however, Yoshi is trying to make a modern mmo, and PvP is a part of modern mmos in some shape or form. PvP is content that doesn't need constant new content created. Just look at the console shooter games. They release 12-20 maps and people play over and over. It is an avenue that gives players something else in between expansions and updates, just like crafting or minigames.

WIll ARR have the best PvP of any mmo? I highly doubt it, so any hard push distracting from PvE content for traditional mmo PvP would not be optimal. Yoshi has stated that he pushing for more traditional mmo combat. So traditional PvP would not make the game stand out from other mmos, only establish that ARR offers it.

I see old FF mingames being shunned. Well games in the FF universe is what could make FF stand out from other mmos if the mechanics are sound and unique. WoW couldn't have Chocobo jousting without infringing upon the FF universe. It could have some other kind of jousting that plays better than ARR though. Other mmos can have fun parks and casinos. But if they designed it and named it to be like the FF Gold Saucer. You can see my point.

Magitek Battle Circuit, FF tactics mmo version, triple triad, chocobo racing, and any other FF minigame you can think of is what would set ARR apart from other mmos be it good or bad. The question would be could ARR do that good in a persistent online rpg? Trying to beat other games in standard mmo type PvP might or might not be possible. But unless it did, it wouldn't incite awe. Even if it did, it would detract from PvE shooting for that goal.

That works fine for cooperative tabletop games where everyone is already automatically "IN" the game. It works fine for single-player games where inter-unit balance is similarly unimportant (because you as the player are playing as every character). It does NOT work well for massive multiplayer games. Narrative follows gameplay (as form follows function), not the other way around. Bad game design 101: justifying a bad gameplay decision with a narrative decision that YOU are in control of.

Aside from which, your narrative argument doesn't even make sense. I think you're confusing balance with role. WHMs are able to heal themselves and always have. It's not as though they won't be healing other players--the question is whether the efficacy of their healing as an equal member of a party far exceeds the contribution of other party members, or if it provides an equal contribution (i.e., "Is any other class roughly as viable for this position as a WHM, or is a WHM clearly better?"). It has nothing to do with their role. It's a pure question of balance. If a WHM can go toe to toe with other classes, then it will be easier to design challenging, unique encounters for PvE.

Bad forum argument 101: claiming that everything that doesn't work for you is bad game design because YOU don't agree with it.

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 11:29am by BartelX

I quit Rift due to the PVP servers. The quest hubs were to close together so unles you had a party of people questing the same time you were you would get ganked and die over and over and not be able to lvl. So I quit never looking back.

If ARR went pvp.. they would have to redo all quests and areas because right now there the same for everyone. If anyone played Tera on a PVP server knows about the high lvls ganking lowbies right outside the first main quest hub. Thus me rerolling to a pve server. Yea yea call me a carebear if u want but when i cant log on and quest there is a problem. I would prolly od the same with ARR if they added them so no skin off my back PVE servers for me. This is coming from somone who LOVES bgs and arenas just hate open world pvp. So good job SE I like where there head is at.

They tried something like this in DCUO, but I have a feeling they did a terrible job. There are 3 classes:

Tank
Healer
Controller

Each class also has a DD stance, which derives it's damage potential from the type of class it stems from. Tanks do superior physical damage, Healers do superior magic damage, and Controllers do superior ability damage.

The roles had a trinity of dominance: Tank beats Controller, Controller beats Healer, Healer beats Tank. This was only applicable while in role stance. Tanks did a lot of damage to squishy Controllers, Controllers could almost stun-lock Healers, and Healers healed way more damage than Tanks could dish out. DD stance was it's own kind of animal as stats and abilities changed. Grappling Hook for a Controller would bind the target and give minor hp regen for a few seconds in role stance, but would reel the target to you and deal damage in DD stance.

The problem DCUO had was severe imbalance within each role. There were Ice and Fire Tanks, but Ice was far superior to Fire. It had 2 abilities that not only gave invincibility for 3+ hits, but the hits were reflected back to the attacker at full value, while the Ice Tank was also able to deal damage on his own. Fire had no such abilities. There were Sorcery and Nature Healers. Sorcery was gimped because it could only single-target heal, or lay a circle on any surface that a character had to stand in for recovery. Nature Healers could simpy heal within a radius to themselves, and also had shield abilities and an ability to give increased magic/ability damage to all party members. Controllers were just gimp the whole time.

When it came to PVE, everything was just a zerg fest. 1-2 tanks, 3 healers, and a dozen DD. Ice Tank uses an AOE pull ability, block. Pop invincibilty, block. Use AOE pull again when losing hate, block. Nature Healers spam AOE heals while flying right above the battle. DD spam AOE damage abilities. There really was no strategy. ONE boss fight had some interesting mechanics, everything else was just a gear check.

EDIT: Weapons also had a part to play in all of this. Charged ranged attacks from Hand Blasters or Bows could stun a blocking target, but for some reason, an exploit that was never fixed (while I was playing) allowed swords to simply tap-range attack to break block. Another example of some of the problems that plagued the game.

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 12:48pm by IKickYoDog

This was right when the game came out and it had more than just that issue but it was the main reason i left.

Amen! I don't want a pve focused game where all classes have the exact same survivability. Whats the point of even having specific group roles in that situation? It's ok to have classes with specific strengths and weaknesses, whether you like that idea or not.

It seems to me that your argument is that a WHM for instance, matched against a SAM, should have roughly a 50% chance of winning a one-on-one battle, all things being equal i.e. talent of the player, level, equipment, etc. Before I respond I wish to ensure I'm interpreting your position on the matter correctly.