I wish Yoshi could afford to think a little more like thisFollow

So I was browsing for some information about EQ Next and found this article: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10/20/soe-live-2012-john-smedley-on-eq-next-and-soes-future/#continued

Now when I read this I quickly realized I agree with a lot of it and I really wish Yoshi was thinking at least a little bit along the same lines. I completely understand why Yoshi is deciding to take the safe route and do what everyone else has done, which has worked fine, but I still can't help but feel like Yoshi could have made a better game if he looked more towards the future of the genre.

In a sense this is the legacy of 1.0 I feel. Not only was it such a bad game it hurt SE and FF directly in a lot of ways, but now it is holding SE back simply because they can't afford to fail again, and frankly trying to do something new is always a risk. Now I am not really saying Yoshi couldn't or doesn't feel the same way, but I do feel like he can't afford to risk anything at all, he has to go the safest route possible even if this might mean a game that isn't as good as it could have been. SE needs to get their reputation back on track so they are given a chance by the players if they ever make a new mmo and right now that just seems to mean make a game that is just as good as the others because it is like the others.

I honestly think that if Yoshi had gotten to do 1.0 with the resources of ARR and enough time he would have done a few things differently compared to what ARR is. Of course this is just speculation, but I think he realizes just as much as John Smedley that the mmo genre is going to start changing (I personally think with EQ Next and Project Titan at the forefront) and the way ARR is shaping up to be it will be a part of the older generation which is sad if you ask me. For the record I don't think every new mmo will be sandbox, that isn't what I am saying.

Now I probably sound super negative which isn't really my intention, I think with the last few years standards ARR will be a decent mmo which will pull some decent numbers if it can overcome its bad reputation after 1.0. As a FF fan though and as someone who feels the genre has been stagnant for too long I wish ARR could afford to be something more.

I realize a lot of you probably don't agree and I don't mind, this is just how I feel about it all, but I do think it was an interesting interview either way that talks about not just EQ, but about the genre as a whole and different related things. Worth a read imo... even if it is John Smedley ;)

PS Sorry if the subject is confusing or bad I just couldn't think of a good one tbh... <.<

Edited, Mar 23rd 2013 7:49am by Belcrono

Lol I won't argue with that.

When it comes to emergent gameplay and the notion of players as content, there's also the problem of antisocial behavior. What sorts of ways do you address that in sandbox titles?

It all revolves around what the sandbox elements that you're putting into the game are. Certainly griefers are a part of every game. Our intent is not to make a game where antisocial people rule the world. The intent is to make a world that's immersive and allows so many player interactions and so much involvement, not to empower griefers. Every single one of our new games is designed with that in mind. A good example is PlanetSide 2. There's a very harsh anti-griefing system in that game. It's funny because before we put it in, you had exactly what you'd expect, which was people just mowing teammates down. We went to China Joy, and it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen, just watching people. They only had 15 minutes on the game, so they shot anything that moved. They were just mowing teammates down. So we had to put the anti-griefing stuff in.

This is not going to be Grieferquest, and every system will be designed around not allowing that. It's one of those things where you have to make it so that griefers can't ruin the experience for everyone else.



Hilarious, because FFXIV has been built around antisocial behavior. Maybe not in context of teammates killing one-another, but in that of players being encouraged and rewarded for working by themselves.

They tried to innovate in 1.0 but obviously it fell sort. If your trying to innovate in the game industry these days its going to take an enormous amount of time and effort. It is a creative process that can not be rushed.

An enormous amount of time and effort... hmmm, yeah. we definitely wouldn't expect that from a multimillion dollar SE game.

(I don't say that to insult you Onineko, I say it because SE seems like they don't give a rats behind, until their blockbuster hit flops harder than a fat boy off the high dive.)

This is going to be rushed, but :

A game doesn't have to innovate to be successful. It has to execute. For a game to be fantastic, it needs to innovate AND execute.

Game design is a lot like cooking. And if you extend a lot of arguments about game design to food preparation, it quickly becomes apparent how absolutely ridiculous many of the theories about game design are.

Innovation mostly deals with the presentation of features. You're not likely to be cooking with new foods that the person has never tasted, but you can come up with a new recipe. But it doesn't necessarily matter how high-quality the ingredients you use are. It's not about which features your game has. If you use the finest steak and the finest ice cream in one recipe, it will probably turn out to be weird and gross. But why? Steak and ice cream are both great!

And then we have execution. Everyone knows how to make a hamburger, but to make a GREAT hamburger? That's challenging to pull off. Many game designers try to copy the hamburger recipe (just like many restaurants do), then wonder why their hamburgers aren't as successful. "But we made hamburgers! You LOVE hamburgers!" And just like there are a dozen other burger places with mixed success, there's still McDonald's with it's subpar ingredients sitting happily on top.

At the end of the day, what makes a dish successful is not whether it was different OR whether it followed the recipe. This is a very flawed and naive view of game design that many people seem to grapple with. Game design is about the very subtle balance of elements--how the new and the old blend together into one satisfying experience-- that only a very competent chef can understand. It's not about the ingredients. It's about how they come together to create mouth-feel, flavor, and aroma.

I know some people get irritated with all my blabber about game design psychology, but a game designer needs to understand the gamer's brain like the chef needs to understand the consumer's palate. They don't have to have a technical understanding of it--they may operate mainly on intuition--but they do have to have a much more sophisticated grasp than "how to mix ingredients to make food" if they want to be successful.

Oh not at all XD!

Gross.

Most people just have poor taste in food, clothing, design, cars, and everything else really. People just want cheap, and they end up looking and acting that way too. That will never change.

I wouldn't say that people have poor taste, but rather people don't have the luxury of knowing better.

I was going to disagree and say something about quality of ingredients in food (in the analogy) and how they do make a difference, but ultimately I agree with Kachi.

Again, Yoshi is going a good job, and sure you want to see the next WoW, iPhone, whatever...to break the mold... but the truth is, FFXIV was never going to be in that position. The downword trend in JRPGs, the staleness of MMOs, the rise of mobile and F2P, the obvious failure of FFXIV and questionable success of FFXIII, and the mismanagement of the Final Fantasy division of SE and you can see that SE wasn't in the position to start gambling and trying to create awesome recipes.

So they're going back to culinary school and learning from the greats, while using (IMO) quality ingredients, to create a foundation of familiarity. Once you have that down then you can experiment.

mmm I'd love an MMO that managed to capture the feeling I had when I played Achaea, Dreams of Divine Lands (a text based MUD). I was never very good at it and never got very far but the game enforced roleplaying. Getting ahead had as much to do with writing a backstory, joining an established family and rising in a player controlled guild (each one actually controlled a class, so if you didn't participate in the guild you couldn't get higher level skills in the class) as bashing rats...

The GMs were gods and often participated in real time events. It was neat, every once in awhile something new and unexpected would happen... the gods would get down and dirty and involved in real world events. It was fun and immersive.

When I first logged in to XI (my first MMO) I expected something similar cause all the muds I'd played had leaned quite heavily on role playing. That it didn't exist was disappointing.

I'd love an MMO where players controlled key institutions and you had to participate in roleplay to get ahead. Alas, it shall never happen. I think that is the magic sauce that these games are really missing though. Getting loot and grinding levels is not immersive. It may be enjoyable but it isn't immersive and it never will be. Dynamic environments are also cool, but without more human control over the world and its institutions the genre will never move ahead really.

Well that's my opinion anyway. I just think that nothing can replace the feeling of being part of a player controlled organization. Joining a in-game thing by talking to an npc can't compare with having to put on a play or perform a poem to become an initiate in the Jester's guild, for example - or to expound upon the nature of chaos to join the.. oh dear forgotten the name of the guild. occultist guild

Anyway, that kind of game creates more interesting memories than fully scripted games are capable of producing. Like once I rolled a new player - a member of the city with the chaos magic wielding guild - starting as that class. So I went and rescued the town's orphans (which were usually sacrificed as part of the occultist guild's rituals) and tried to run them to the holy city of the priests. I got all the way to the holy city but the church was barred to me since I was of the other city, so I couldn't quite save the orphans.

Then I was captured and repeatedly killed by other players... until they got bored because I was level 1 and couldn't delevel.

Anyway, one of my most memorable gaming memories ever.



Edited, Mar 26th 2013 12:13pm by Olorinus

I can't help but laugh at the word LARP. I'm still not even sure what it is (Dungeons & Dragons?) but the word makes me giggle.

It isn't a very appealing sounding word, I'll give you that. It's Live Action Roleplaying, where you physically act out the character. It's like improvisational acting in a loose sense. Some of them are more sport-oriented, focusing on combat.

Well, during the eating of a Wendy's triple cheeseburger I feel like I've died and gone to heaven.

Shortly after eating one I just feel like I'm about to die.

I only eat fast food about once a month, usually when I'm traveling. The rest of the time I cook from scratch. Thankfully, by now I know how to make things taste delicious without having to add a ton of fat and salt. (A little fat and salt is necessary, but not as much as fast food places use.)