Dynamis and your LSFollow

Appie isn't a leader of Lemonade.

Yet again... I will speak the voice of reason if I can.
Step one : Linkshell leaders... forget this entire forum thread. Obviously it has gone nowhere. In the end, it appears EVERYONE wants cooperation in one way or another. Start at the beginning. Clean your slates of all the issues and problems and anger. Think it over, what is best for the Ragnarok end-game community? Continued arguing? Definitely not.
The goal should be cooperation. This thread is a poor forum for communication because the angry members of the linkshells are voicing their opinions in this free environment, furthering hate and seperation. The linkshell leaders should do one thing: gather in game somewhere, devoid of anyone else. Remove their shells. Talk about how to solve this problem, without arguing. I believe the result will be my original post, that both calendars be used. However that comes about, that is the best option for everyone involved.
Do I expect this to actually happen? Probably not. Anger breeds anger and all that seems to be happening is increased resentment amongst the linkshells. Resentment furthers into hostility, hostility escalates to war. In a war, no one thinks, they only destroy. And that is not something I would like to see on MY gaming world.
Realize that many people make mistakes, and misinterpretation can be taken a long way if not immediately remedied. No linkshell leader should have animosity toward another, they are a voice, not an opinion. When talking for your LS, your own feeling are not of much importance, the only thing you should think of is what will help your LS to achieve its goals. That is not arguing, that is resolving.
Allakhazam is the WORST possible forum for such a discussion. Some discussions are valid here (complaining about MPKing at HNM events? WTF is with THAT?). But this is not the forum you come to in order to reach a peaceful solution. You will simply watch the angry masses swarm up and ruin everything. My first post was short and simple, with the easiest and friendliest solution for all to see. No one took much notice or followed up, and I don't really mind that, I didn't actually expect anyone to. Much like I expect this post to be 90% ignored and the arguement to continnue.
I will end this with myself doing what no one else will do : falling in subservience. I beg of you, do not harm this world any more. Stop this arguing, help the people who need it. You'll notice I have yet to put a name in any of my posts, and that is intentional, as I don't see people to blame, only people who need to realize they are hurting everyone. Anger is the worst quality in man, it derives itself from primal needs. Much like we rose out of the eons of slaughtering one another senselessly, we must rise above this emotion that is only useful in specific scenarios and for short periods of time. THIS is not that time, this is not that place. All linkshell leaders of Ragnarok, this plea is to you, the world in which you live/play is there for the happiness of everyone involved. Remember that before you think angrily or unpleasantly of another linkshell. Happiness does not come from anger and unpleasantries. I don't care who said what first. As of this moment, no one should care. Everyone should be seeking the happiness of their world.

Edit : constancy in text, I got a little too wordy and it got messy.

Edited, Sat Oct 29 15:44:44 2005 by Notgivingnameaway

Hmmm... Rohon... are you a LS leader? I get the sense of no. Good to see you agree somewhat, but your agreeance is not what my post seeks.

Edit: Rohon, sorry... that probably sounded a bit mean. I'm just a little tired of all the non-LS leaders posting on this thread. Thank you for reading and understanding. I just hope everyone does.

Edited, Sat Oct 29 16:17:13 2005 by Notgivingnameaway

It would be better if you actually posted your ingame name. What do you have to hide if all you intend for is peace?

After all, you're telling Rohon that you want LS-leaders only to reply. Are you one? If so, which LS?



That one person could very well be someone within your LS itself. Why are you hellbent on not posting on the calendar? Based on some principle that we've bullied you into using it?

Look at what Jaypee and Makore, both LS leaders, have written carefully.

Give me a valid reason why you can't use the calendar? I know Airamis' reasons. I've read this thread. But sorry, they're not really that valid, if you read Jaypee's post.

This whole thing seems utterly comical: one side saying "Post on our calendar please", other side: "No you post our times on your calendar by looking at our calendar please". <---- Do you not see how silly this impasse is, seriously?

Why? Because look at this. What chance do we have of having the LS we are having trouble with respect our time requests on the TShot calendar when they cannot respect our time requests when they are not on there.

I am talking about the November 2nd WIndy run we had planned. They cannot play innocent when they planed their run for Windy the same day AFTER one of their own members came on this forum and posted that he now knows of DBS's own calendar (not Dynamiscalendar.com, I am talking about the one on our website we have posted runs on since as early as you see them on there.)

I am somewhat willing to start cooperating here if they are willing to as well, but since our leader Airamis told me not to start posting there till he gives the OK, I cannot.

Still waiting to hear from Lemonade.


Yes I do, but Airamis is just offering a SECOND place to look (not a replacement place) that has a domain name that makes sence to someone seeking a dynamis calendar. I am not bashing TShots or meaning to, but the more you spread information out there, the more people it will get to. Like I said, if we can get this resolved with Lemonade, I would be more than willing to be that one person if Airamis okays it.

We are just waiting from the voice of Lemonade..... (feel free to /tell me in game if you want to discuss it today. Airamis is gone for the day but I would be more thn happy to discuss the issues we are having and look for a solution to them)

First, Rohon stop. It may be well intentioned, but enough. That goes for anyone else from DBS who feels a need to post here. I appreciate the desire to help explain what should require no explanation, but it seems only to be making matters worse. Rather than this devolve into more posts similar to Russta's it has to end.

I will claify points which have been brought up that are simple lies, or deep inaccuracies involving my statements.


From Stellar In THIS THREAD:
[quoteI didnt know about the calender and even recieved some rather disheartening tells from a few of the other LS's when I was in their spot for a dynamis run.][/quote]

As someone suggested that I put words in Stellar's mouth I figured I would simply repost what was being ignored from his post in this very thread. I will also add the fact that I myself said Stellar was far more diplomatic than I was in how he characterized it here.


Also, I never said I spoke to "LS Leaders" when being told to watch my back, I clearly, and in simple english said "MEMBERS". You are dismissing the personal opinions of members of linkshells now? Sorry, but if you can sit here and defend Russta's wretched vomitous mass of crap, then you have to defend all individual's beliefs equally. The majority of these persons came to me AFTER this post, so its very clear (from a time line stand point) why I would suddenly have so much info on the matter in such a short period. Oddly, i find MEMBERS willing to send me tells and talk, but no leaders. Isn't that interesting? Leaders will not come forward, but members will. Sounds like the wrong folks running the show to me.

My statements, arguments and comments have not changed. But many attempts have been made, and various tactis tried, to make them out to be inaccurate. The simple truth is so many efforts would not have been made were it not true.

As it seems to escape so many here what the problem is, and I have said it enough times that I would think those who bothered to read AND think would have gotten it by now, is this:

Know issues have arisen, with members of LS attacking, abusing, insulting, and threatening members of other LS. This dates back to BEFORE Tshot's calendar was used by more than a tiny MINORITY of LS. Rather than anyone take a leadership role, either in terms of the calendar or within their own LS, those involved have simply ignore those abuses, and vulgarities, or explained them away. This has created a form of tacit approval for the method if it meant getting people to go use the calendar. I am sorry, but 'the ends justifies the means' is a 6 year old mentality. If you won't stand up to your members and publicly criticism their actions AS A REPRESENTTIVE OF YOUR LS, when they do something you claim clearly violates the beliefs and values of your LS, then you are making a CLEAR statement that the beliefs and values of your LS are not, in fact, as you claim them to be and a tacit approval of the vulgar abusive comments made.

While this may be 'only a game' it is a game in which the psychology of societal interactions still very much aplies. Even more so in many respects as there are no 'laws' to guide one in many things. Only agreements on what is and is not acceptable behavior, as refelcted in societal reactions to inappropriate actions. No reaction = approval. So not acting to admonish, criticize, or as LS leaders openly apologize for the actions of your own members, is in fact an acceptance of their actions, an approval of the behavior and an example set to the society.

For those about to give me a ration of "Its a free country he can say what he wants!" You bet your skivvies he does and I'd be the first person to step up and fight for his right to SAY it, but you better believe I would be at the rally next door demanding he be hel accountable and responsible for saying it too. With freedom comes responsibility and too often peopl exercise the former without regard to the latter.

So there you have it, again. The real issue, and the truth that puts the lie to most of what others have said here. I'm sorry if you can't follow it, or just want to lash out at it again, but it won't ever change. That's the great thing about the truth. It's constant, while lies constantly need to change and flop about.

In closing, I will repost what Calderon said in the very first reply to this thread...



Bad Karma returning to the source is an apt description.

EDIT:

In focusing so much on trying to show the history of abuse, the mentality of control and the LS behind this actions I have failed to read another thread on this very forum dealing with almost EXACTLY the same issue, only in respect to HNMLS.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=53;mid=1129159934108797527;num=95

Odd, it seems that SAME LS keep coming up as the ones trying to control, run things, drive others off. Odd the OP here uses the phrase "ABUSIVE" to describe the actions of the LS in question, provides link to another thread on another forum showing yet ANOTHER LS having similar issues with the same groups. And what a shocker, there are live journal posts from SF members saying MPKs of people are good. One even comments on speaking to SACK HOLDERS of ZEN who agree with the idea and just needing to get Solstice on board with the plan.

Gosh, if I weren't so focused on trying to show the actions and true motives behind the Tshot/SF calendar, and the methods used to force compliance, I might have seen this earlier. It's not just Dynamis, but HNMs as well. I especially like the person taht commented on how the actions listed were designed to "DRIVE OUT" the LS who wa MPK'd. Gosh.. now where did I hear that if you didn't play by certain LS rules I'd be "DRIVEN OUT".... my oh my. I guess I made up that thread too huh?
ROFLMAO

And yes, there is dripping, seething sarcasm all through that last paragraph because anyone who can't see the truth now is simply living in denial.

Edited, Mon Oct 31 10:16:06 2005 by airamis

Dodge, dodge dodge.

I belive we have a pretty well established pattern here. 'Nuf said on that subject.

RE: Stellars post at DBS forums, you're right, my mistake and I apologize for confusing Spike Flail with Sparkle and Fade, given the usual abreviations for both seem to be SF, I got confused.

Still, SF has control of the calendar. SF seems to want control of NM pops bashed on other posts. SF, or its members (as well as several other LS, I am NOT singing AF out by ANY means here) seem to have some sense of entitlement to things and that others do not. it strikes me that the comments in the MKP thread share a common theme with comments in this thread as I pointed out.

The actions of members DO reflect on the LS, and I have, through this, repeatedly admonsihed or instructed MY members (many of whom would love to proceed as several members of SF seem inclined to) that if they act on any such impulse they will be GONE. Regardless of anything else they have done for my LS or its members in the past. And believe me, the private postings and private conversations I have had with some members they would very much like to return the sentiments. I simply have given them the choice to speak and never be a part of either of my LS again, or to hold their tongues. No I cannot "control" anyone. But I can make it clear what the consequences are for inappropriate actions and them let them choose. Maybe knowing there will be no consequences inspires others to act on impulse without thought. generally speaking this is how societies work. Taht goes for real AND virtual ones.




Sorry, just showing a very clear pattern of behavior and you're quite wrong, I play this game and maybe one day I will want to fight HNMs, so it does concern me to see that SF's name comes up in two places with accusations of trying to dominate and control endgame activities. Forewarned is forearmed. And if Rohon isn't allowed to speak for ME (as both you and Tyl have suggested), then you have no right to say "Bedrock Said" or are you making up rules here too for your own benefit? Further, I will assume you are the Shellhodler of SF? If not, one wonders why you contiune to post when you are so adamant about my dealing directly with leaders and not members.


In going back over this I saw a statement from Ash about my not showing respect for the 'higher' LS in the Game. Why would I? what have you done that's so deserving of respect? have you helped me in ANY way? Have you done anything to earn my respect? Nope, yet you demand it. That alone is a reason not to give it. A demand for unearned respect is an empty demand.


Edited, Mon Oct 31 15:15:17 2005 by airamis

Edited, Mon Oct 31 15:19:31 2005 by airamis

I look back over this thread and I wouldn’t characterize what you have posted as wheeling out the welcome wagon. Again, my original intent with this entire thing was to show a prevailing mentality and gross disrespect for up and coming shells by older more established (to use your own characterization) that actually extends into outright bashing and flaming of them. My posts in the majority have been directed at the mentality. My comments directed at SF specifically have been to point out instances where they, and others as well to be totally fair, have themselves participated (as a LS or as individuals who reflect on the LS) in this type of activity. I do have issues with SF based in large part on the posts I have seen their members make, and the language used. I do not need to be a woman nor be raped to be outraged on behalf of a victim as it were.
Please direct me to a single instance of myself or a member of my LS using language or tone even a small fraction as offensive or vulgar as that some of your own members have used. Or members of other LS have used for that matter. In fairness I will give you one example I have seen, a LS member who thought he was funny posting ******************** instead of tshot. I immediately made it clear, in the same thread that that was NOT going to be tolerated. I don’t see any posts in praise of him anywhere. Unlike others.




Yes you are in control. The only persons with authority to add anyone to the calendar are those who are part of SF. Evidence the fact that all previous requests to post have been met and responded to within 7 hours, while a request from a person asking to post our runs (which I still do not agree with) has gone unanswered for 49 hours and counting. More than 7 times the usuall length for other LS. If I were inclined to believe Bedrock were a small man in this I’d say it was deliberate to ‘teach us a lesson’. But I believe quite the opposite in fact. Something clearly has come up that makes it impossible for him to grant access or administer the forums at all. Which really only points out a major flaw with only a single person being in charge or having control.
The difference is I want no control. I don’t want Tshot controlling, I don’t want SF controlling, or DBS or anyone else for that matter. Bedrock cannot give the kind of access required to the calendar to anyone outside of Tshot/SF for the simple reason that doing so will give that person access to his protected forums where I am sure you all post ToD and pop times of HNMs. That fact alone means there cannot be a sharing of administration. That is WHY I have said a central site, and NOT any single LS site needs to be the source of the calendar. This fact alone would instantly eliminate the problem I stated above. WE have runs posted and now since the person who requested access cant get it, they will be ignored because many individuals here have stated as such. THIS IS AN INHERENT FLAW. It can only be resolved by allowing multiple members from multiple LS to have unfettered access and that can only happen on what I have previously referred to as “neutral ground”. Which I mean as ground that does not belong to any ONE LS but to ALL LS.
In truth I wouldn’t give any other LS leader access to the Admin panel on DBS either. It is more than a LS site and I have areas that the general public is not welcome to explore because they deal with private NDAs that I cannot legally violate. This is why Dynamiscalendar.com was created. To AVOID all of the above issues.
Give me 3 names, send them to Dynamiscalendar.com and I’ll give them the ability to add anyone to the Ragnarok calendar group they want. Or if you want to, drop me a PM as soon as YOU are registered and I’ll give you the ability.
The only exception I would make would be to those areas that deal with licensing and overall domain/forum control. There would simply be no reason and it contains personal/financial data that I would prefer not be shared. But as far as everything else. Have it, take it. I could care less.
I’ll even throw this out, vote on it. Vote a moderation board to settle disputes. I won’t even allow myself to be nominated. Happy?



Speculation and Hearsay perhaps, but when a large group tends to start thinking one way there is a trend in most societies (real and virtual) to accept perception as reality. The fact that many seem to point to SF (and in fairness Zen) in other areas and allege, separately, the same things I have questioned here without previously knowing anything about such issue shows only one thing. The image is questionable and needs to be brushed up. As such, no suggestions of impartiality can be made, and taken seriously, as regards the calendar. If anything the calendar poses a PR disaster for SF as long as they retain control (see above) because it can easily be pointed to as ‘another’ example of an attempt at control. Again, perceptions can often supplant reality. Why make it easy? You want to take a step to dispel the hearsay and make a huge statement NO ONE can dispute? There it is.



See above.
You can go off on me all you want. But the fact is SF looks to be fighting the same issues and accusations on two fronts. HNM and Dynamis. I can understand your frustration over this as a member of SF who I am sure does not hold these thoughts (I’d like to think I can judge your character well enough from the tone of your posts on this matter, but it is again an assumption based solely on hearsay and speculation).


I never said they did which is why you have not heard me say it. Why would I lie about that? It has not happened at least as far as I know. I have merely pointed out that it seems you have your hands full and I find it very interesting that the attitudes and actions alleged seem to point consistently in one direction (ok two if we add Zen to the mix). I entered into this debate entirely, if you re-read my posts, because I can see the trend. It is the trend and the seeming willingness to perpetuate it that is the problem, as I have repeatedly said.
I added the HNM issue because it points to similar mentalities and issues, and once again involves the same group of ‘established’ LS. Again, a trend.
In attempting to point out an ongoing trend, which is leading to the problems I am highlighthing I apologize if I did not make that clear. I’ll say it again, the current, large and established shells appear to be guilty of unaccepatable behavior in many forms and many times the attendant attitude is one of entitlement to behave in such a manner. SO my issue with SF, and many other ‘end game’ LS is the same, the attitudes suck and need to change.
Resolutely stating that new or small LS should show some respect when the general thing seen by those LS is a total lack of respect, only breeds contempt. Contempt will eventually spill out in the types of post you see going on in two separate threads.
As I have said before, look at it objectively and ask yourselves why so many up and coming LS have no respect for you. It seems you have trouble respecting yourselves or each other, why should they?

Fair enough. My real goal was to hope you’d see that in your attempt to defend something you believed in or clarify your LS leader’s posts or comments, you’d see that Rohon’s intentions were no different than your own.

You want to know how I’d feel? Go read the link I posted back to my forums that a LS member started after we had been attacked. In fact, go back to the OP and read the attack on that LS, or others who have recounted such tales. You want this to go full circle? OK, LS #1 abusively attacks another IN GAME and then posts, the attacked LS, not being aware of ANYTHING that is going on makes an attempt to defend itself. And now the original aggressor (or agressors) has a claim of being wronged? Hardly. The one that throws the first punch cannot cry victim when things begin to turn against them. Not if you seriously want respect.
What you miss is the original intent of my postings HERE. There is a situation, it is being repeated, it is not a sustainable situation under the current circumstances and it must be addressed. But all anyone is willing to address is how wronged the original transgressor is. In this instance it might not be SF, but again, the ATTITUDES are clear. Someone has actually tried to suggest that the uninformed, unware, and honestly mistaken LS who was being flamed in the OP is somehow responsible for everything that transpired and as such so is DBS or any other LS that does not posses the physic ability to figure this out, but the only defense offered by the larger LS is that THEY shouldn’t have to be physic either. Both are accurate, but I’m sorry, with the role the established LS seem to seek for themselves, which is that of respected leaders, comes with it the responsibility to act in an open and proactive manner to those coming up. You cant know everything, but when a conflict arises from innocence, the historical record shows that the wrong course of action has been taken each time. If you guys want the respect so bad, take the responsibility that comes with it too. You want one, you are required to take the other, or surrender both. It’s just how it works.


I have been attacked but those with this ‘we own it attitude’. I have read posts (which you characterize as hearsay) by those stating the same issues I have with several Ls as being common to other LS as well, namely SF in the previously linked instance. Again, I have pointed out trends in behavior. Also, again, I am not saying every member of these LS share this mindset, but those who do, and who are allowed to run rampant are the ones bringing the ugliness down on the entire shell. Keeping members like this is questionable. If you do, then don’t act so surprised when the issues crop back up. Please note I am not suggesting that anyone should be kicked based on their posts, although in my 2 LS everyone knows they will be held personally responsible for their actions by ME based on how they reflect on the LS as a whole. I will GLADLY remove a member who brings that level of discredit and disrespect on the LS because they cannot hold their tongue or at least use civil language to express their views. And every member of both shells knows it and some former members know it all the more.

In point of fat I recently had a member ask my ‘permission’ to go on a run with another LS that are party to this disagreement. I not only thought it very bizarre they would ask ‘permission’ as I have no authority to tell anyone who they can and cannot associate with, but I made point of the fact that there were probably VERY many good players in all THREE LS they mentioned and that in no way should any of this reflect poorly on THOSE players. On leadership and sacks and those who had already made fools of themselves? You better believe it! But not general members. Spike Flail was one of those LS mentioned here as well.

I’ll say this Ash, while I may disagree I do respect you standing up for what you feel are the wrongs committed against your LS. That’s very honorable and deserving of respect. But as I have said previously, pride, and self interest need to be set down long enough for people to see some basic facts. Even if those basic facts are ugly, or don’t show people in the light they wish to be seen in. You cant fix any problem until you admit to them.

I’ve repeatedly tried to show some of them and I’ve offered to foot any financial cost, repeatedly, to fix the problems. But I can’t do it alone. Others have to set it down and see the facts too. It is the apparent total unwillingness to do this I find most unsettling. Because it suggests a desire to maintin the status quo, which is clearly not a good thing for anyone if equality and fairness are in fact the honest goals of all involved.

I expected no less to be honest. I not you did not respond to a single thing I said. You cannot in truth, because to do so would prove so much of what I have said to be right. It is very hard to turn to the truth and accept it. It is much easier just to turn away from it. So far, everyone here has turned away. Yet the truth stands,as it always does.

I read the condesending 'apology' you listed and your own members profane and vulgar comments about the apology. So your comments on that score are simply untrue.


Dynamiscalendar.com will go on, obviously the one person who attempted (again, against my wishes) to solve the problem has been denied access to the calendar ( going on over 65 hours now with no reply, nearly TEN TIMES LONGER THAN ANY REQUEST BEFORE), proving what I have said all along. Its about control. We made an issue, we've been shut out. No problem. But if I recieve one profane or impolite tell in game it will simply be sent to GMs to handle.

I too am finished. Attempts at reason, truth and honesty have been rejected. This can only be seen for what it is by anyone who reads even a fraction of what is written.

I'll leave you with something to consider...

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)

My comments have been ridiculed, and violently opposed. The third step takes time, but I'm patient.

Edited, Tue Nov 1 08:41:07 2005 by airamis

bedrock lives in the hurricane area with no power for like a week so far , and so is mrpolish
that's why mr.ihavenoname or w/e was his name didn't get access

I was all gravy-wavy with the post up until this paragraph. Mayhap I misconstrued what I read, but it appears that according to chur PoV that the people in Dynamis were "unworthy" (my word) of being in there. It appears extremely condescending and I'm not a fan of that. Chu and I have pted a few times and we've gotten rather good exp, so it's obviouthry not a personal or whainternetsyewhatearefreedomsls kinda deal going here. Anyway, these new groups have as muchu a right of being there as anyone else does. They paid the 1m for the hourglass and they got there first.

The reason these "small groups" were probably there during scheduled run times is because they were completely oblivious to the calendar. Heck, had it not been for this topic, I would've not known about the calendar myself, and I've been to a Dynamis every week out of the past 2 months. Hardly a veteran like many on the server, but one would assume that I'd have some knowledge regarding the system. Anyway, one cannot really fault these "small groups" for being ignorant of the fact that there already was a system in place. No one is omniscient.



Which is the exact purpose of dynamiscalendar.com. In fact, it's a lot easier to employ than the present other calendar. Let's see...ease of usage, no dependency on anyone else but the poster, run times posted according to the time it was posted and not the run time itself...{Hmmm.} I wonder whichu of the 2 is more user-friendly. No one is going against the grain and being all F**K YOU AND YOUR SYSTEM MAN!~ Airamis merely seeks a way to improve the current system at his own cost. Re-read that: at his own cost. Not only that, he's already offered to allow others to moderate the site and the calendar.



Once again, there's no going against the majority. In fact, this is trying to improve what the majority has already created. Honestly, what's the worst that can happen by posting run times on dynamiscalendar? Suppose that it truly is a conspiracy set up by Airamis to control all the Dynamises on every server (obviouthry quite hypothetical). Suppose that on the calendar he's controlling to thwart the "big boys", he posts run times for LSs that conflict with theirs. In that case, one can just leave that iron-fisted calendar and strictly adhere to the TShoT one, completely ignoring the other one, whichu is what is happening right now anyway. So, once again, what's the problem? Why not utilise both calendars to everyone's benefits? One could say the same for the TShoT calendar, but they've already shown to be exclusive, seeing as how they've ignored the 3rd-party person's requests to post other LSs' run times for the past 5 days. He's trying to bridge the gap, but there's seemingly a vast river to cross first.

No need for this post now. .____.

Edited, Wed Nov 2 12:24:40 2005 by ChuChuWally

Hmmm.. people instructing other people on what and where to post? Sounds a bit controlling to me.