Star Wars VII - Seen ItFollow

Use a dozen spoiler tags if needed, but Spoilerany significant Mark Hamill? That's really the difference between going to the theater or accidentally seeing it on TNT for me.

No spoiler tag because anyone who would expect it to be needed is a moron.

I'm quite impressed... with how well Disney has been able to manage the publicity of this movie. Somehow it has maintained a 95% rating on Rotten Tomatoes despite the actual contents of the movie. Reading some of the reviews it's pretty clear they been carefully curated and all the marketing buzzwords of "triumphant" and "transcendent" are there. I think the gaming industry has some competition when it comes to the lack of credibility of triple A reviews, watch out.

The movie itself? I've seen them all, and a fair amount of extended universe materiel (The Clone Wars, wikipedia lore), but I don't consider myself a fan. I felt insulted as a movie goer. I think it may be the safest and most conservative film I've ever seen. It was as if it was cobbled together by a team of market research algorithms rather than any sort of artist. It's a copy-paste best of hits from the original trilogy. There's homage and then there's plagiarism.

Beyond the lack of originality there were some very notable major plot holes that even the campy original series didn't need or use.

It has some terrible acting/casting. Kilo Ren / Ben Solo was fine until he took off the mask to reveal himself to be a teenage Snape wearing skinny jeans. Finn starts out far too bumbling and never really makes it past that dimension. Rey is a timid character who does the effective things required of her by the plot, but never manage to sell that personality.

The successes are in the costume design. Kilo Ren keeps the familiar silhouette for in universe logical reasons, and yet manages to add breathe new life into the concept with his great mask and saber design. Phasma has some great armor that feels in place within the aesthetics of the original, yet still brand new.

Despite the moony-eyed bleats of the majority fanbase, I'll stick with the prequels. For all their faults, at least they had some life in them.

Poe was thrown out of the crash in such a way as to both survive and be a great distance away from Finn (as he would be easily seen in a barren desert)... while also somehow being thrown out of his jacket that becomes a crucial plot device. Rey becomes an expert at using the force after watching someone else use it for about 15 minutes. Maz is very good at reading people, except that she has secret agents lurking in her tavern.

There's plenty more that may not be holes, but that's catchier than saying plot ditches. Finn's abrupt defection is significantly out of place, even as fans try to mitigate with "it was his first battle," yet somehow that overrides decades of indoctrination since childbirth in a way not experienced by any other Stormtrooper. The millenium falcon suddenly starts working once Rey needs to escape. The Star Destroyer is ready to begin firing just now. The First Order discovers the location of the rebel alliance just as it's finished. The Rebel alliance instantly figures out how to defeat the weapon. Phasma single-handedly cripples the First Order. R2D2 was somehow powered down and conveniently wakes up at the end to finish the map. General Fox is able to find Kilo Ren and leave the planet before it explodes.

In bad movies, events occur because the plot demands it. This went a step worse where events occurred because the fans demand it.

There was too much too similar to the original trilogy. I have a difficult time thinking of a scene or plot line that wasn't ripped from it.

Main character is an orphaned knave on a desert planet.
Use Millenium Falcon to escape.
Hang out with Han and Chewy.
Head to a watering hole populated by seedy characters.
The thing they are trying not to call a death star? No seriously I don't remember it's name because it's just the death star.
Death star has a singular weakness that you must fly through a long passage way to target.
BB8 is R2D2.
Kilo Ren's rampage is Darth Vader's force choke (felt this was one of the more tasteful and subtle references).
Secret reveal that big bad guy is a familial relation to the good side? Check.

There were also allusions such as 12 parsecs and the garbage chute that would be fine were they not layered on like 10 ounces of frosting on a 5 ounce child's cupcake.

You can make that argument after the other movies have been made. Even if you are arguing it will be a good trilogy, you're still arguing it's a bad movie.

The movie was too afraid to take any risks with the original trilogy and as a result offered nothing new. It had no aspirations and no creativity.

Edited, Jan 7th 2016 8:28pm by Allegory

I assumed that having someone powerful in the force use it against her awoke her natural abilities. She's related to someone (exactly who is a bit of up for grabs, yet I'm sure she's a descendant of one of them). She was "activated".



I thought he was basically kidnapped and forced into it? I only saw it once but I remembered him saying that. So while maybe a long time, it wouldn't have been from childbirth. And he's only what... 23 years old or so? So "decades" is a bit of an exaggeration. He's basically a side effect of them not using clones (which I think is mentioned when he first defects).



I was certain that was no coincidence. Just like it was no coincidence that Luke was waiting at the top of the mountain for Rey.

Edited, Jan 7th 2016 11:46pm by TirithRR

Seems like you read some click bait sites telling you all the supposed "flaws" in the film, most of which weren't flaws at all if you paid attention, or were even remotely imaginative (and perhaps didn't demand that the writers hold your hand and explain every detail to you, in crayon).



Two people ejected separately from a damaged ship and didn't land conveniently right next to each other? And that's a plot hole to you? Yes, the jacket was a convenient contrivance. Maybe Poe took it off and stowed it in the fighter at some point? Dunno. Seems like a minor nit to pick. Rey hardly became an "expert". She had to try several times to manipulate the trooper guarding her, and was only somewhat capable with the lightsaber later (and was shown to already have significant hand to hand fighting abilities anyway, so that's not a stretch). Um... Maz runs a seedy joint where smugglers and whatnot meet up and presumably make semi-illegal deals all the time. Why be surprised that there are "spies" there? If she didn't allow such people, she'd have gone out of business. Your mistake is assuming that she wasn't aware that her place was a hive of scum and villainy.

And again, none of these are plot holes. Just things that happened in ways you didn't like or didn't understand.



The very fact that there exists a re-indoctrination process for the non-clone troopers (and a named character overseeing it and who's sole job seems to be to keep the troopers loyal and obedient) suggests that this is hardly out of place, or even unexpected. Just because the film only focused on one guy who defected doesn't mean that this isn't a problem the First Order has encountered before. Again though, you have to actually imagine that there's more to this universe than just the details spelled out for you.

The fact that Rey assumes the falcon is just a pile of junk sitting there doesn't mean it should not operate (and it didn't operate very well anyway). Also, this is one of those things that probably isn't actually the coincidence you think it is. Again, the writers are deliberately keeping us in the dark about Rey's past, and part of that may absolutely include the "coincidence" that she happens to be in the same location where the falcon was hidden, and Han and Chewie just happened to find them shortly after she fired up the falcon and started flying it into space.

I'm not sure why you're making a big deal about the timing of the Starkiller. Um... The events in the story progress as they do because they finally finished this thing and decide to use it to take out the leaders of the New Republic. This is actually clearly explained in dialogue in the film. There's no indication that the First Order just now conveniently figured out where either the Senate or the Rebels are. They just now have the capability to destroy them because... wait for it... they just finished this big superweapon they built specifically to destroy those two targets. I'm not sure why you think this is some kind of plot problem.

Phasma actually disabling the shields was a stretch. I figured she assumed that even with the shields down, the rebels didn't have the power to actually damage the weapon. And she was actually correct. The rebel's attack wasn't successful. It was only because of additional action by the infiltration squad that the building was damaged enough to be attacked. And that was something she likely assumed they didn't have sufficient people to pull off (which, at the time, they didn't). So yeah, she was saving her own skin. Chalk it up to maybe not everyone in the First Order being so willing to sacrifice themselves "for the greater good". I saw that more as her having a personality, and flaws even. Shocking! Not everyone makes perfect decisions? That's just crazy talk...

R2D2 powering up right when Rey was the one in the room (for the first time ever) and looking for Luke? Gee. I can't imagine why that was when he finally chose to wake up and hand over the missing map pieces. It's almost like he was told to do so under specific conditions and not until then. But that might require that we speculate that maybe her past is significant somehow and she's not really just some random kid who happens to have force powers. Nah. I'm sure it was just random coincidence. Seriously? You honestly didn't get this?

I've heard the whole "How did Hux find Ren?" bit over and over, and each time I have to wonder if those people's brains just dripped out of their heads of something. You really can't think of any way two military commanders might be able to locate each other when needed? I mean, on this big massive base (or on a star destroyer, or wherever they may be), how do you supposed they schedule meetings, or manage to coordinate their activities, or otherwise locate each other when they want to have evilguy dialogue with each other perhaps? You can't noodle out how this could be done? Maybe they have, oh I don't know... radios or something? Maybe they have the Star Wars equivalent of a glimpse app on some handy device they carry? Or maybe you imagine that in this futuristic universe, people just wander around randomly trying to locate each other hopelessly. Do you really need to be shown every single detail? How did Tarkin find Vader to tell him there was a meeting in 5 minutes, and to make sure to be ready to force choke anyone with a disturbing lack of faith? So instead of assuming that they kinda must have some means of communicating and locating each other in order to just do their normal day to day work, even if the writers don't spell out the specifics for you, you instead assume that this is somehow impossible and it's some form of plot hole that one person could ever locate another? That's... strange.



And in really bad movies, the writers spell out every detail to the audience on the off chance that some people wont get what should be either really obvious things, or things that honestly don't need to be spelled out because they really aren't necessary for the plot. I mean, why did the drifter who just happens to be a great gunslinger just happen to wander into that one horse town right when the evil bad guy was in the midst of hatching is plan to seize control of the land from the innocent farmers? Um... Because that's the plot of the damn movie. It's a story about the conflict precisely because events happened to occur at such a time so that both "sides" were in proximity of each other. If they weren't then it would just be the story of a drifter wandering around just drifting, or the boring history lesson about how great grand dad took all the land from the farmers who used to own it and no one stopped him.

Get it? You're basically complaining that it's a story.



Yeah. That's intentional. You may not like the storytelling style, but it's not an accident, and it's actually not even lazy. Done properly it's a very effective way to show similar patterns, with different details. Go look up the whole ring theory about Star Wars if you want some info about why these films are so intentionally similar.



Yup. You're supposed to see those similarities. But there are also differences, which is where the story lies. Similarly, the tales of Luke and Anakin were deliberately parallel, with Luke making just slightly different choices which affected the outcome. Intentionally. I actually found the character of Ren (Ben) to be very interesting. He's not a Jedi, and he's not a Sith. And while he's quite powerful, he's also not very well trained, and not remotely in control of his powers (or his emotions). I liked that his saber mirrored his mental state. And the fact that he was struggling with his "good" side was a nice twist, including his desire to have Luke's lightsaber (which is basically a symbol of stability and sanity and perhaps even "goodness", which he desires, even while consciously rejecting it). If all you got from his character was that he was a snotty brat with force powers and seemed too emo for the genre, you completely missed the point. He's supposed to represent the struggle itself. He's not evil because he's actually evil. He's evil because he's not sure what he is, and he's torn by what he thinks he should be, and isn't sure which direction to go. Killing his father was his attempt to prove himself to be evil, but I suspect that he'll also start to feel guilt at the sacrifice Han was willing to give for him, which will create yet more conflict in him.

In short. Great character. And not remotely like Luke or Anakin.

Other difference. The Order isn't anything like the Empire. I mean, they're trying to be, but I think one of the themes of this series is that the new forces that arise will never be more than shadows of those that came before, but are trying hard to fill that gap. It's literally the children trying to step into the shoes of their parents, and generally failing. Snoke is a silly name, I think, but he seems to represent a new (or perhaps very old) force power. The introduction of Maz as a thousand year old force sensitive (but not Jedi or Sith) is another hint towards this. The force has always existed, and it was only defined as light/dark, and Jedi/Sith, because of those two organizations and their joint philosophy towards the force. Maybe I'm totally mistaken, but I suspect that this series is about exploring completely new aspects of the force that don't fit that philosophy at all, and are just now being able to take root because there is no longer organized groups of force powered people seeking out and training all force capable people into one "side" or the other.

That's just speculation on my part, but regardless, it's clear there are many difference in this story. Finn doesn't fit into anything like the original two series (no one ever defected). He also represents an evolution and examination of the whole storm trooper angle. Which I kinda like. We get to see that they aren't just faceless people under those masks, but that they have to be carefully indoctrinated to be that loyal (or stupid, depending on how you look at it). He's the answer to so many fan complaints that a military force made up of storm troopers as portrayed in the films would be utterly unworkable. Yeah, they aren't complete robots. They aren't actually identical (even the clones had different roles and duties, and these guys aren't clones). And yeah, that opens up the possibility that some of them might just choose to do something different than just fight mindlessly for their leaders. Heck. Some of them might even weigh the odds of some traitorous action they're being told at gunpoint to take actually resulting in a loss for their side against their own life, and choose to save themselves. Cause... You know. They're trying to show that these aren't just mindless robots. And they succeeded, not with just one character, but with two. I took away from that whole aspect of the story (and others) the theme that in this new galaxy, things are not pure black vs white. It's shades of gray.

The method of destruction of the base was similar to Jedi, but the overall character arch was more similar to New Hope. Again, these are deliberate choices. I don't have a problem with them. Guess what? The pacing and story of the next film will also be very similar to Empire. And that's also not a mistake. Get used to the fact that these stories are deliberately laid out in a specific pattern.



Yeah. Fan service. Look. You're about to kill off one of the most beloved characters from the original series. You kinda have to coat that pill in a lot of frosting, right? Again, I didn't have a problem with it.




No. I can make that argument right now. Because most of the complaints I've heard are of the "But I don't understand why this thing happened, when it happened, and how it happened", when it's quite obviously because there are additional reveals to be made in the future films. That doesn't make this film "bad". It means that this film isn't going to explain everything to you. And when those things are quite obviously plot points that will be covered in the next films, and don't actually cause any inconsistency issues in the first film, then they are not problems.



I completely disagree. You're looking only at plot elements and failing to see the bigger thematic picture. As I talked about above, there are several aspects of this film so far that are very different and "new". You just have to open your eyes and see them.

Edited, Jan 8th 2016 6:08pm by gbaji

I have a ridiculous theory on that.

What if she's not related to anyone from the previous episodes at all? What if she's actually a Force Jesus like Anakin? Not just an FJ, but THE FJ from the prophecy. Which would mean that Anakin was instead spawned by the Dark Side in an attempt to subvert the prophecy. It seems like having opposites play a role like that would fit with the eastern mysticism that Star Wars likes to draw from, so I could almost see it happening.

And it would almost explain a lot of the ridiculous feats she seems capable of with no training.

It was a very safe retread of the original movie (with some dashes of ESB and RotJ) by a conglomerate that spent a bajillion dollars for the rights and wanted to make sure the movie appealed to as many people, especially 30-50 year olds who grew up with the original trilogy, as possible. Here's all the same plot elements, here's your Rebels v2.0 versus your Empire v2.0, Death Star v3.0, original cast members and everything that worked the first time. It wasn't bad but there was nothing about it to make it unique or great, either. It sold a lot of tickets, I assume it's selling a lot of toys and lunchboxes, and it'll make everyone feel okay about buying tickets to the next one.

The one Huffington Post article did have some stupid comments in it but reading that dork nerdraging about it was hardly an "epic takedown". It was, in fact, legitimately stupid that Phasma immediately sold out the First Order without so much as token resistance and that Fin is all sadface over his dead Stormtrooper buddy in one scene and, six hours later, is mowing them down from a TIE Fighter without so much as a pause. I seem to be the only one bothered by the fact that the Death Star v3.0 was being led by the Bobsy Twins who looked like they were going to have a slapfight in front of Daddy Snoke. Neither of them looked like they should be shift manager at a Starbucks, much less leading an army's monster death weapon.

Oh, and people were calling Fin a "janitor" the day the movie was released. Probably because, you know, of the big knee-slapper moment where he says his big role in the First Order was working sanitation.

Just had a friend on Facebook publicly spoil certain major events from the new Star Wars movie, then laugh about it. I wonder what can be so funny about having everyone you know and care about blocking you and then never speaking to you again.

My wife doesn't seem to understand why I'm so angry with her(the friend).

I expect as much from loathsome anonymous trolls on the internet-- not from people I know IRL. Even if I had already seen the movie, I would have been equally disgusted. Basically what our friend has demonstrated is her willingness to betray our trust, then make light of it-- saying of all things that if anyone is offended by it then it is their own fault and they shouldn't be on the internet (again, as if she were some internet fuckboi immune to all consequences, untouchable.)

I'm actually a bit surprised with how aggravated I am by all of this, until I think of it this way. I'm already thinking about the things I'm going to say when I'm inevitably made into the bad guy for not wanting to visit them on Fridays for D&D anymore, barring a damned good apology. Of course, knowing her, there won't be one.

That was one of her excuses as well. Not everyone has x-millions of dollars from a lawsuit and has all the time and money in the world to go see movies at their leisure like she does though. I'm pretty sure the last movie I've seen in theaters was The Dark Knight. But yeah, there probably is some line where it begins to be ok to talk about details of a film. Obviously everyone knows Darth Vader is Luke's father whether or not they've seen the movies, but it's been decades. I'd say as long as the movie is still in theaters and not on any sort of take-home media it is probably best not to reveal spoilers.



It was not an accident. It was very deliberate. I still don't know what she could have been thinking. Supposedly she is upset now because multiple people have given her flak for it already. She probably thought it was funny. The thing is, before then I had seen no spoilers for the movie whatsoever. Even among all the anonymous assholes I spend time with on the internet, all of them at least had the respect to not ruin the movie for others.

Edited, Jan 13th 2016 10:03am by Kuwoobie

Putting spoilers on post-it notes and sticking those to all the movie's toys in a store is still a **** move, though.

Bringing it up solely to spoil the movie for someone (as it sounds like she did 'as a joke') is a dick move even if the movie's been out for a while. Yeah, yeah, eventually everyone knows about Rosebud but you're still just doing it from some perceived comedic value in being a jerk so just call it what it is.

General discussion is fair game. Someone reading a thread generally about Star Wars today couldn't legitimately complain if parts of the latest Star Wars movie are spoiled.

Yeah, and that's fine-- if that were the case. It wasn't. If it had been an accidental stumble across a casual conversation it would have been totally fine and I'd have no one to blame but myself. What was posted was a giant picture with big bold text regarding x person who died and how-- cross-posted from some ******* pop radio station. If it had been just that, even, it might have been somewhat ok. But then she goes on to preemptively chastise anyone who has a problem with her posting it, making her intent very clear.

I mean, ****. It's not even about the fact that she spoiled the movie. It's the fact she went out of her way to **** off as many of her friends as she could.

What if I decided to dig up some photo of one of her dead children and posted it with no context whatsoever-- then commented below saying "this what happens to bad mothers."? Then I could say "Oh, this is the internet. Deal with it."

Gosh. You're right. If I can do that, why, there's virtually no limit to the things I can do.