Game of Thrones: Season 4Follow

Sorry, that was really unclear phrasing on my part, I meant Spoilerthe rape wasn't in the book, not that there wasn't a sex scene.

The big problem people are having with it isn't the fact that it was turned into a rape scene, in general. Most people are willing to accept fictional depictions of rape when that actually serves a purpose and the rape isn't being used as a plot device, which is the case ridiculously often (and GoT is a big offender there).

A rape scene that exists to actually serve as a commentary or discussion about the horror of rape? A scene done in the context of the Jaime/Cersei dichotomy? That's not a horrible idea.

If that was the idea. That's what has people really pissed off. The director doesn't think this was a rape; his language about the scene has literally been the sort of "you know she wanted it" defense you get from rapists. So it pretty much guarantees that there's not going to be an honest approach to the aftermath of the event, because the director didn't think there was anything different from the scene from the book.

He thought it was just an honest-but-twisted expression of perverse love, like in the book. Instead we got a scene of Cersei screaming at Jaime to stop as he quite obviously rapes her, and a director who thinks those two are interchangeable.

Put into the context of the other pretty horrible ways GoT bothers to diverge from the books, at the expense of women but almost never at men, it becomes even more problematic. Things like stabbing a pregnant woman in the stomach for shock value, excessive brothel scenes for no reason other than to get naked women on the screen (plus a relocation of other scenes to brothels for the same reason), a cavalier use of rape as a plot device (not considering this example), prostitutes torturing each other for shock value, etc.

So, yeah, none of my friends have their fingers crossed at this point. The director's surprise that people saw it as a rape pretty much ensures the follow-up to this episode will be as rape-culturey as it gets.

Shocker.

I didn't read the rest of your response, but given what I know of your character, I can pretty much assume what it says.

How long-standing a relationship does not matter. Ignoring someone's lack of consent is rape; there is literally no situation in which assumed consent can trump a spoken refusal. Ever.

And, even if we're supposed to assume Cersei secretly wanted it, the very fact that we have to be told that was the case is the very fabric of rape culture. We're told to accept a rape, despite literally every discernible cue telling us Cersei was not consenting, merely because of the argument that she secretly wanted it.

This is literally the overwhelmingly effective defense actual rapists use against their actual victims in our culture.

Even if their long standing sexual action involves her pretending she doesn't want to have sex until he gets frustrated enough to force her, and they both get off on it? I get that this isn't healthy, but no one's claiming these two are. To translate that into a stock "OMG! It's RAPE!!!!" bit is silly at best. It's two fictional characters in a fictional world, where dead things walk and dragons fly. Seriously? Get over it.



Um... We are. Again, I get that this makes people uncomfortable, but it was abundantly clear from the scene (and others in the series involving them) that she did indeed want it (and not even that secretly). I got more of a "we shouldn't be doing this next to our dead son" vibe from the scene than that she just didn't want to have sex with him at all.



Again, it wasn't that secret.



Sure. And if this were a depiction of some couple on their first date, I'd be the first to agree with you. But a depiction of two people who've been involved in a harmful incestual sexual relationship for the better part of 20 years? Not remotely so. Heck. Even if this were the first example of Cersei rebuffing him only to have him pursue her anyway (implying this was a normal part of their relationship) you might have a point. But it wasn't. This part of their relationship was foreshadowed way back in season 1 (just rewatched the series so it's fresh in my mind). I've always gotten the impression that their relationship has involved a fair amount of sick, twisted, and yes, forceful elements to it. Nothing about their relationship ever struck me as "loving and tender". So no, I wasn't particularly shocked or surprised by how the scene played out on the screen. Again, that's kinda the way you'd have to do it, otherwise you lose the dynamic of their sick relationship.


It's supposed to highlight how "wrong" their relationship is. Anyone who interprets this in the context of real world relationships and rapist rationale is stretching IMO.


EDIT: Oh. And I think it's important to note that I'm reasonably certain that "she really wanted it", has never actually been successfully used as a defense against an allegation of rape. When people get away with rape, it's either because the woman does not press charges (and yes, that's a problem), or because there isn't sufficient actual physical evidence of rape (go ahead an insert "didn't leave any marks" jokes if you want) to prove the allegation. It may very well be used as an excuse by rapists for committing the crime in the first place, but it's pretty terrible as a defense.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 6:11pm by gbaji

The world isn't simple though. Hence, the problem.



Except, say, when these are two fantasy characters being played by actors, and the director says "she says no, but she actually does want to have sex with him". Please tell me that you get that in this case we can actually know for 100% sure that "no means yes" in this case because it's a character and not a real person?



So not so simple, huh? I agree that in the real world, the man cannot know for 100% sure, so he should always err on the side of "assume she means no" even if the last 100 times she said no she actually did want it, said she wanted it after he stopped when she said no, and was upset with him for not getting her hints that she did all the while (cause this like never happens, right?). But in a world where these are characters and the director/writer actually can say "she really means yes"? Same rules do not apply.



That's about the most meaningless thing I've read on this forum (recently at least). So it doesn't matter if there is "blatant sexual desire". WTF? I thought it was about what she said? So now you're saying even if the woman is grinding up against her partner, saying "oh baby take me hard", he's supposed to magically know what her real decision is? That's insane.

Rape is when you force someone to have sex with you despite them clearly informing you (via any reasonable means) that they don't want to. It's not about what she wants, but what she says and does. Here's the problem though. It has to be about the message she's sending. And in a normal case, we can assume that saying no is sufficient to inform him that she doesn't want to have sex. But I disagree with the sexual history bit. If they have a long history of her playing a game where she says no intentionally to get him to be more forceful with her (again, sick relationship, so whatever), then what is she telling him? Not "I don't want to have sex with you", right?

Recall that in the first season of the damn show, there's a scene where Jamie make an amorous move towards Cersei and she pushes him away and says no. He gets a frustrated look on his face like "not this game again". Like I said earlier, they've indicated previously that this is "normal" for their relationship. She "refused him" before he was gone for so long, and before he lost his hand. And it was clear that this was part of their game. Again, that makes people uncomfortable, but that's the point. This isn't the real world and these are not "normal" people.



Sure. But when Cersei says "no" to Jamie, there's a strong indication that both of them know that she's not actually telling him she doesn't want to have sex with him. We can debate whether this constitutes rape or not (I suppose we are), but it's clearly part of their characters relationship and it should be treated within that context. No one is at all implying that what these two do is normal behavior, nor that anyone should be emulating them.

I just find that the real world desire to treat women as eternal victims is not really well placed here.



Sure. And in a relationship where I don't know what you really want, I have to go by what you say. That's the whole point of "no means no", right? I'm arguing that with these two, that isn't the case.



Wrong. Sorry. Not sure how much more clearly to say it. I have personally (twice with two different women) been in a situation where the woman said "no" and I stopped, only to have the woman complain that I stopped and insist that I should have known what she really wanted. I'm not making this up. I literally had one woman tell me, and this is a direct quote: "You should know that when I pull away from you, that I want you to chase me". This after we'd been making out on a couch and she kept pulling away from me, so I'd stop. She'd re-initiate making out, only to do it again. Finally, she literally jumped up, said "no" and ran across the damn room from me. When I asked her what she was doing, she responded with that exact line. I'll never forget it.

I'm sorry, but women do incredibly stupid things (men do too, of course). I fully accept (and have always followed) the rule that when a woman says no (or even just indicates it in some way) that the man should stop. But let's not pretend that this remotely follows from any kind of fact that women actually always tell men exactly what the hell they want. The sad fact is that women actually do say "no" when they mean "yes". All. The. Damn. Time.

Want to address social effects on rape? Have feminists actually get women to stop doing this. Would do more to prevent date rape than anything else that could be imagined. Sadly though, most feminists care more about demonizing men than actually reducing the number of sexual assaults suffered by women.


And in this case? I'm perfectly ok with accepting that in this complete fantasy world that we're watching, Jamie knows better than some uptight feminist how his sister/lover behaves and what she wants. It's not remotely so simple and clear in the real world, so how about we not project that imaginary simplicity onto a fantasy one?

Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 7:00pm by gbaji

Honestly, maybe I was paying more attention than most (or not as much?), but this is exactly the sense I got from the scene. I got far more of a "not right here and now" than "no, I don't want to". Dunno. I definitely got this being more of a power thing than just sex, but a whole lot of that was about the incredible inappropriateness of the location they were in, and not the act itself.

I guess I just don't make any attempt to equate their relationship and actions with anything remotely near "normal", so it didn't bother me so much. I mean, there were so so many things wrong with that damn scene already...

I dunno, but I believe many of the head doc types will tell you that rape is all about power & control versus 'love making'.

The tv scene to me, came off as a very different encounter than what I got from the book.

What if by not changing their relationship, or Cersei going back to him, it's used to show just how ****** up she is?

It still requires the show to actually write for that, which is really my only major issue here. The fact of the matter is that the director admitted he didn't think it was a rape scene, which it obviously was.

You can't just drop in a rape scene in, and have no character ever acknowledge it or act around it, and have that scene be some kind of non-absurd data point for character building. That's just really sh*tty writing.

I mean, to be fair, the frequency with which male writers try and use rape to develop female characters (both positively and negatively) is already absurd and disturbing in its own right, but if they wanted to try and have an honest go at it, then at least they'd be trying.

My issue isn't with the fact that Cersei and Jaime now have this rape between them, my issue is with the fact that this plot point almost certainly isn't going to be treated with any kind of respect, because the director seems to have been unaware that it was a plot point until the show aired and he got hit with backlash.

I mean, I feel like you aren't getting what I'm angry about? I'm annoyed that it's a clear scene of a rape that the director is treating as being a clear scene of consensual sex, and so it will almost certainly be treated as such in the next episodes.

[EDIT]

I mean, put it in context. Rape is a super violent crime. If Jaime had just severely beaten one of his children in order to vent his frustration of the various motivators that led up to this scene, and in the next episode Cersei and the child both act like that's fine and not even worth commenting about, why would ANYONE think that was okay?

My problem is that this is essentially what rape culture led this director to do. He didn't realize he was doing it, but he did.

Edited, Apr 25th 2014 11:12am by idiggory

I... I really don't know how to answer that? Do you think they film and write the next episode the week before or something?

And what we know is that the director was shocked to find out people thought it was a rape. That tells us that the director did not treat it as a rape. Is there something else we need to know?

The interview in question took place one week before the episode in question aired. The comment was about the scene in the book and filming of the episode, and not about the audience's reaction to the episode.

Edited, Apr 25th 2014 2:47pm by TirithRR

Why? I get how rape is something major in our world, but do you get the same impression from the Game of Thrones world? Compared to all the other psychotic sh*t happening every episode?

Edit: I'm not arguing whether or not it was rape (director said it wasn't, so...), just whether or not rape is a big deal in the Game of Thrones universe - or at least a big enough deal that the scene could only result in Cersei and Jaime's relationship changing to something inconsistent with their relationship in the books.

Edited, Apr 26th 2014 1:57am by Mazra