So I don't read books..Follow

Heck no, I'm reading Artemis Fowl nowadays, seems to be about the same level really. If Ender truly is considered the best science fiction for the last 40 years or so, I weep for the genre. No wonder there's hardly any decent one to be found nowadays. Granted, hyped nonsense like Twilight or the previous one doesn't help, nowadays you can't look at a sci fi section without seeing books about lonely girls and/or vampires or magic in some form or another. That doesn't help either I suppose.

Ender struck me as simple and childish, it's a first impression I got from that first book, I did finish it but then that didn't take all that long. There truly isn't happening much in it. I take most of what Zelzany's written in the last fourty so years (granted, after 1995, that hasn't been much unfortunately) and consider it by far better. As always just my opinion though.


Edited, Jun 11th 2011 12:25am by Zieveraar

The Last Starfighter, that's what the book made me think of! That's probably not the best comparison to have when I started to read the book, definitely did not help.


Edited, Jun 11th 2011 12:31am by Zieveraar

Actually, it is simple. Get off of your high horse gbaji, it's a book, nothing more. I don't care for it, so I'm not going to start a deepgoing debate on whether or not I read the darn thing or not and if I 'got' it, which in its own is a moronic debate.

That being said, if I recall correctly, the interludes are between the trainers and or leaders of the training facility in regards to Enders qualities and how they should train him and if he's truly going to be the one to lead the army. It's been a while though, there's also some debates on his state of mind, if they aren't breaking him by pushing him nonstop and allowing the occasional bully to attack him.

Not caring for it is not the same as saying it was "simple" and "childish". The themes and ideas presented in the book are far from either of those labels. I accept that you may personally not have liked it. There are lots of books which people rave about that I don't like. Hell, semi-recently I wrote some negative stuff about Watchmen, which most people think is the greatest and most ground-breaking comic book story ever written. I didn't call it "childish" or "simple", though. I acknowledged that it had some deep plot elements. I just said that I didn't think it was as deserving of praise as it was because the ideas presented in it weren't really as new or original as those praising it thought they were.

There's a difference between criticizing something and presenting legitimate faults as support. And not liking something, so you present it in the most negative way possible absent any explanation as to how it matches the label(s) you've applied.



Half right. The purpose of those interludes is to explain to the reader *why* they were doing those things to him. Those interludes are the reason why the book is on the Marine Corps suggested reading list. They show that the things they do to Ender during his training aren't just random and mean spirited, but that every single thing they do to him has a specific purpose necessary to training him for what they need him to do later. Add in the fairly complex political aspects of the book, the human nature elements, and the ethical quandaries presented at numerous levels, and there's just no way you can label it as "simple". And I suppose someone who failed to understand that might see that the use of children as main characters might just make the book "childish", but that's a failure of the reader to see past the surface of the story.


It's why I suspect(ed) that you never actually read the book. The most likely reason one would have that reaction to the book is if they saw a cover of it and read a synopsis. Hell. I'd think it was simple and childish based on that too. Young kid, recognized as a prodigy, heads off to train as a leader and saves the world from invasion from bug-like aliens? Yeah. I'd think it was a stereotypical feel-good kids story too. But it's not.


I suppose it's possible someone could retain that first impression after finishing, but that would put you into an incredibly small minority. I've just literally never run into anyone who read the book and viewed it that way. Some who didn't like it? Rare, but there are some. Those who thought it was childish and simple? Not a chance.

Don't overanalyse it gbaji, it's a waste of time. You know full well that there's no synopsis that includes those interludes. If I didn't get it completely correct, then that's just my memory messing up, but you yourself already admitted that I got half right. Can't get half right on a guess (well, I do have my moments but still), so I did read the book.

Using kids doesn't make a book childish, the way they're used does. You claim that the book has "fairly complex political aspects of the book, the human nature elements, and the ethical quandaries presented at numerous levels". You could have fooled me though. There's a very clear one about sacrificing the individual to protect the whole, I suppose you could throw in botched alien first contacts too leading to deliberate genocide, several others too no doubt, Ender's siblings dabbling in the art of politics.

I suppose I might belong to that small minority, at no point in the book was I drawn in, nor vaguely interested in what's going to happen next or why even. You say that this book is on the military to read list, I can't imagine why, surely there are older works that clarify the whole "training him for what they need him to do later" bit just as well if not better?

Well, not really. In anticipation of your response, I did a quick google search of the book to see what someone franticly looking stuff up might be able to find. One of the first hits is this study guide. From the first chapter synopsis:



Similar paragraphs start off the guide for nearly every chapter. Enough to know that people are discussing/controlling what's going on, but perhaps not enough to know *why* they are doing so.

I anticipated your response. It was more or less exactly what someone who just looked up the book to see what it was about would say. Now, that doesn't preclude you having read it at some point and having forgotten, but my spidey sense is going off here. It's just that if you actually read the interludes in the book and not the synopsis of them in a guide like this one, you can't possibly miss what their purpose is. I mean, I suppose it's possible, but you'd have to have a pretty low reading comprehension to miss it. I first read the book in High School I think and it was abundantly obvious to me what those interludes were about. You just can't miss it.



Except that you could get exactly the half right you did, if you were reading an online spoiler. Again, I suppose it's possible you just forgot. After all, it's a book you didn't like anyway, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But then again, if you don't recall the importance of those interludes, then perhaps you've forgotten what the whole book was really about as well? Maybe you read it when you were younger and missed it?

Perhaps you should read it again with a fresh set of eyes and see if it holds more meaning for you this time around?



Using them in situations where they're forced to make very difficult, sometimes life and death, choices does? I'm just not seeing that at all.




You really either never read the book, or have completely forgotten what it was about. Sacrificing the individual for the whole? Um... No. Siblings dabbling in politics is correct, but you could have gotten that off a guide. And they didn't "dabble". It was far far more than that. I'm not saying that the whole "kids manipulating the whole of the earth government by using internet pseudonyms" wasn't a bit over the top. But you're supposed to suspend your disbelief regarding the actions of children in the story. That's the point. You forget along the way that the main characters are actually children. Every once in awhile Card will remind you of this, and it's a bit of a shock because the characters don't act like children. That's part of the point, and it's something you can't miss when you actually read the book, but will if you just read about the book.

Hence, why "childish" is just a bizarre label. There's nothing childish about the story. There are "children" in it, but they don't act like children. Ever.



That's a fair thing to say. Enjoyment is subjective. There are lots of works that others love that I can't stand. I was just surprised by the reasons you gave for not liking it. Dunno. It just leaped out at me as something someone would say to dismiss the book if he'd heard about it, but never actually read it. Fair enough though.




There are actually very very few books out there that give as clear a depiction of the "why" for various military training techniques than Ender's game. Most are either dry semi-historical works, or don't really delve into the "why" parts at all. Ender's game, because it's fictional, can follow a single character and those he interacts with, and show at every step how the hardships he's faced with shape his choices and actions during his training. The story itself shows what happens, the interludes explain *why* those things happened. That's extremely rare. In fact, I'm not aware of *any* other fictional book which uses this technique.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 5:28pm by gbaji

I have never heard of a Military To Read List.

I'm the same way! It's weird, I have read "A Stitch In Time" multiple times, and I still can't tell you exactly what happened. Other books, even ones I didn't care for, I can tell you almost exactly what happens to each character.

I'll have to look for that. Have you read Warbreaker?

This is the first I've heard of this book, it sounds interesting. I'll have to check it out, thanks.

I picked up "Name of the Wind" and "Ender's Game" today. I've looked at "Ender's Game" before, but figured I wouldn't like it much because it's one o'them future-space books, and I usually like the more fantasy-ish type sci-fi books. I sat down and started reading "Ender's Game" before I bought it to see if I'd like it, and I was hooked. I'm already a third of the way in, it's interesting.

I very much doubt you'll be disappointed in either book; both of them are in my top 20 books of all time, possibly even higher.

Ender's Game, for the record, is #1 on my list.

Also, I've been digging China Miéville's books, notably Perdido Street Station, The City and the City, Kraken, and his new novel, Embassytown.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 5:41pm by Spoonless

I thought Kraken was good for what it was. It didn't feel like it had the same kind of scope as his other books, but I enjoyed reading it very much. It felt similar to a Neil Gaiman novel.