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Just wanna say how nice it is hereFollow

#27 Nov 07 2013 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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If only devs would start commenting on these forums then there'd be no reason to ever leave. :)

I kind of feel like we should appoint a single person to go to the official forums and pull out relevant information to share with everyone, so that we don't have to all be subjected to it. We could always do it hunger games style too.

Edited, Nov 7th 2013 12:03pm by Onionthiefx
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#28 Nov 07 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
The One and Only Onionthiefx wrote:
If only devs would start commenting on these forums then there'd be no reason to ever leave. :)

I kind of feel like we should appoint a single person to go to the official forums and pull out relevant information to share with everyone, so that we don't have to all be subjected to it. We could always do it hunger games style too.


SE reads these forums. (They've said they do, and we have proof they do.) They just don't respond here.
#29 Nov 07 2013 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Onionthiefx wrote:
If only devs would start commenting on these forums then there'd be no reason to ever leave. :)

I kind of feel like we should appoint a single person to go to the official forums and pull out relevant information to share with everyone, so that we don't have to all be subjected to it. We could always do it hunger games style too.

Edited, Nov 7th 2013 12:03pm by Onionthiefx


I normally just wait for Szabo to post something about it on these forums Smiley: nod
#30 Nov 07 2013 at 6:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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10. Killua125
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#31 Nov 09 2013 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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Teneleven wrote:
10. Killua125


You win ZAM today lol... That was hilarious...
#32 Nov 10 2013 at 1:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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DarkswordDX wrote:
Any ideas on what the hell makes XIV so different? We had an online community back then every bit as big as WoWs (in the early days at least). And those who were asshats were known and widely disliked. They were there, but represented a small minority of the online community. In the XIV era it seems like they're 80% of the userbase, with the rest of the nice guys struggling against the tide.

I have a few thoughts on this. None would be the sole reason and each condition will vary a bit on the environment itself, but here goes...

1) Glorification of drama.
This doesn't deviate much from real world media in that you're more likely to see bad news reported than good news. Be it deliberate or simply witnessed, as these things are basically documented, you have some people that will then strive to one-up some circumstance to go down in infamy, for better or worse.

2) Lack of moderation.
Don't let Alla's karma system fool you, it doesn't scare off people who want to stir ****. Some posters establish themselves as being deliberately antagonistic. They'll throw the insults. They'll make wild accusations. They'll consistently bring up hot button topics in the worst way possible. It might be easier to just label these people as trolls, but some thrive here more on deception than bullying, so it's not exactly a catch-all moniker. But even ignoring forum behavior, bad attitudes flourish within the games themselves because banning someone generally translates to losing profit. What companies risk with this mentality is the people they alienate and lose because you see the same troublemakers day in and day out filling public channels with their drivel, the only defenses being very poor chat filters (unlikely with the times on net slang) and ignore features. The latter brings the issue of what may be viewed as one-sided conversations where you could see someone responding to this mischief, maybe even making them look like a bad guy. I know it's for this reason I am very sparse on my ignores, using them mainly to snuff RMT spam.

3) Anonymity.
These fuel 1 and 2. I have a healthy respect for the good it offers, but can also acknowledge it enables bad behaviors when left unchecked. People can make you a target for the most inane things online. And of course because of this layer of safety, people will be ***** in hopes of praise with no real fear of punishment. Heck, some even gloat when they get banned from a games official board, playing the whole snarky, "I'm better than them, anyway!" angle. Frankly, anonymity is an issue when the individual can't reign in their ego and not accept that no two players are the same in their ability to play and interests.



All these in mind, I am of the belief that the majority of MMO players do not visit any kind of forum related to their game regularly, if ever. Some of this may be due to past bad experiences. Some might not have the time, especially if you can't net surf at your job or school. Even more may just be content with playing the game when they can. They're the silent majority not so much caught up in the intricacies of class balance, but they're still not ignorant to problems that hinder their enjoyment of the game. It can be annoying when the bad apples try to speak for this majority or outright downplay their desires for the game because they're not a top-ranked PvPer, on the bleeding edge of the raid game, play 30+ hours a week, or whatever. The "casual gamer" thusly gets bad rap, leading to other derogatory slang like carebears, n00bz, scrubs, and so on. I don't really like that this behavior has thrived over the years, and with lack of moderation, the eventuality is either an individual bowing out or having to get a "thicker skin" as some might put it. I've never bought that, though, as further joking about things like rape or other aspects of conquering our digital peers is just another glaring example of lacking sensitivity. Though, I'd also not delve into the gender issues prevalent within gaming, as while some are legit, there are some that just seem to be pandering to my category 1.

I'll cut things short, but in summation, the net isn't the free domain some would like you to believe. Every site, game, or whatever has their own rules, fair or not, which can be further subject to their ISPs or even (inter)national law. There's a fine line between policing and censorship in this case, but 1, 2, and 3 have basically led to the now and things won't change unless consequences become more prevalent. In blanket terms, we could probably just call all this **** cyber bullying, and while there are occasional cases of people making things far more personal, I wouldn't say it's as serious as, say, a bunch of kids trolling some unpopular kid's facebook and leading them to suicide or acting out violently. But I also believe how we derive our entertainment further identifies us. If someone thrives on the misery of others, I definitely don't want them in my friend pool. Whatever sociopathic tendencies lie within I'd rather just leave for shrinks to diagnose. But some days I just think I see kids who never got spanked when misbehaving.
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#33 Nov 10 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:

All these in mind, I am of the belief that the majority of MMO players do not visit any kind of forum related to their game regularly, if ever.


I agree. I played XI for the better part of a decade but never came across anyone on my server who had a clue what I was talking about when I mentioned reading something here. Not in all that time.


Seriha wrote:
But some days I just think I see kids who never got spanked when misbehaving.


Things would be different if you actually could spank a kid without DCF (or whatever the equivalent is in your state is) getting involved. All the kids who did get spanked grew up to be the ones making the rules, and they decided that "time outs" were better than a smack on the bum because I guess growing up to be individuals with a healthy respect for consequences and authority was somehow degrading society.

I can't really say for sure whether one way is better than the other, but I do know that my nephews don't listen to a word my sister says. I can only imagine it's because there are no real consequences to their bad behavior. She even raises her voice they threaten to go to a teacher. What the heck can you do with guile like that? Kids have too much leverage over their parents these days and they are too young and hotheaded to understand the pain they are inflicting with threats like that.

And we just let them do it.

Edited, Nov 10th 2013 10:28am by Torrence
#34 Nov 10 2013 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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Perhaps a bit tangential, but there is a difference between spanking and beating your kids black and blue. The latter I'm obviously not a fan of, while the former can at least initiate a sense of fear before knowingly misbehaving. Of course, there are other forms of punishment like grounding or removing access to things, but if your kid never leaves the house or you take away something they don't really care about for a short period of time, then not much is really gained there.

I'm not a fan of how one of my older sisters has raised her kids. She and I have gotten into some heated arguments over it, too. I have my suspicions about my nephew's social life goes, that being bullied, and in turn he comes home and emulates it to his younger sister and others because that's all he seems to know. Virtually every other sentence I hear come from him toward me tends to be an insult and it's to the point where if he comes down to my house and asks what I'm doing, I don't tell him because it usually results in some variation of, "That's gay!" There are occasionally things that come from his mouth that I know came from my sister, too, so it's not like she's been a sterling influence. Basically there are days I feel like I'm dealing with a 5 year old in a 15 year old's body. "Boys will be boys," and similar epithets just strikes me as a cop out.

So, while I'm not so much of the, "The next generation is going to end the world!" type of thinking, I'm skeptical they'll do it much good. Things like this are why I've pretty much decided not to have children, myself. Add onto this political and economic woes and it's not like they'll be inheriting a world that's in good shape short of something that could actually unite us on a global scale. But since I don't see aliens invading or a doom plague sweeping humanity, it'll just be business as usual.
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#35 Nov 10 2013 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
Seriha wrote:
Perhaps a bit tangential, but there is a difference between spanking and beating your kids black and blue. The latter I'm obviously not a fan of, while the former can at least initiate a sense of fear before knowingly misbehaving. Of course, there are other forms of punishment like grounding or removing access to things, but if your kid never leaves the house or you take away something they don't really care about for a short period of time, then not much is really gained there.

I'm not a fan of how one of my older sisters has raised her kids. She and I have gotten into some heated arguments over it, too. I have my suspicions about my nephew's social life goes, that being bullied, and in turn he comes home and emulates it to his younger sister and others because that's all he seems to know. Virtually every other sentence I hear come from him toward me tends to be an insult and it's to the point where if he comes down to my house and asks what I'm doing, I don't tell him because it usually results in some variation of, "That's gay!" There are occasionally things that come from his mouth that I know came from my sister, too, so it's not like she's been a sterling influence. Basically there are days I feel like I'm dealing with a 5 year old in a 15 year old's body. "Boys will be boys," and similar epithets just strikes me as a cop out.

So, while I'm not so much of the, "The next generation is going to end the world!" type of thinking, I'm skeptical they'll do it much good. Things like this are why I've pretty much decided not to have children, myself. Add onto this political and economic woes and it's not like they'll be inheriting a world that's in good shape short of something that could actually unite us on a global scale. But since I don't see aliens invading or a doom plague sweeping humanity, it'll just be business as usual.


That sounds pretty gay.

Edited, Nov 10th 2013 4:03pm by Montsegurnephcreep
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#36 Nov 10 2013 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:


2) Lack of moderation.
Don't let Alla's karma system fool you, it doesn't scare off people who want to stir sh*t. Some posters establish themselves as being deliberately antagonistic. They'll throw the insults. They'll make wild accusations. They'll consistently bring up hot button topics in the worst way possible. It might be easier to just label these people as trolls, but some thrive here more on deception than bullying, so it's not exactly a catch-all moniker. But even ignoring forum behavior, bad attitudes flourish within the games themselves because banning someone generally translates to losing profit. What companies risk with this mentality is the people they alienate and lose because you see the same troublemakers day in and day out filling public channels with their drivel, the only defenses being very poor chat filters (unlikely with the times on net slang) and ignore features. The latter brings the issue of what may be viewed as one-sided conversations where you could see someone responding to this mischief, maybe even making them look like a bad guy. I know it's for this reason I am very sparse on my ignores, using them mainly to snuff RMT spam.
.


The karma system isn't designed to be the scary part. It's more along the lines of a vibration dampner, designed to eliminate some of the rapid pendulum swings and give people a chance to reward worthy people or destroy annoying ones before they get too estableshed. We try to offer a less restrictive board overall than some, since we feel that honest discussion is part of a discourse that is interesting, even if that discussion includes negatives of a game. At the same time, we try to also convey that there are limits and walls, and when someone hits one of those walls or crosses those lines, we remove them and ensure they stay removed. A bit of drama can be good for a forum from time to time. You also have to look at poster dynamics. A forum thrives on new topics to draw in readers. Banning a proliffic topic creator who is somewhat abrasive is worse for a forum's integrety overall than banning someone who just replies to threads because you lose that initial point to build from. Guild allainces can be problematic. Ban a popular member of a large guild and you get 20 more people who quit a forum. Guild based on frum membership implodes? you lose another 50. It's a balancing act, and one that is difficult to get right even after 11 years of playing around with the mix. I like to think the forum rules and the ability to temporarily mute accounts rather than removing them permanently has helped lower the amount of unacceptable forum behavior overall while actually making it easier for people to express themselves without wondering where the lines are actually at.

We probably err on the side of giving too many chances to some people sometimes. That being said, I've personally banned more accounts than I have posts. Most of those were spammers, but we do ban things as needed on occasion enough to give people contemplating doing something stupid pause.
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#37 Nov 10 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, my talk on Alla specifically kinda waned after commenting on karma. At one point I was active on XI's OF, Rift's, Diablo 3's, Aion's, and a few others not really worth remembering. There are common trends among them that have inevitably led me to the cynical view that people suck and the less I'm forced to interact with such personalities, the better off my related gaming experience is likely to be. Unfortunately, there's a bit of a catch 22 where if all a given game dev is seeing those outspoken viewpoints, they might believe that's what people actually want. It can create an awkward tug for those who do want a better community, but come to resent trying for it because their efforts feel fruitless. Perhaps Alla is spared of this a bit due to not being any given game's official home.

I will say, however, that clique mentalities can be disastrous in other ways. I've made enemies over my perspective on RDM for XI, and this has led to circlejerks of people trying to put me down (sometimes with quite humorous lies) or anyone who might've shared similar perspectives, but perhaps lacked the fortitude to remain engaged. They certainly ruined the RDM section of the OF at the time and I don't think it's really recovered, but I could also blame SE's overall treatment of the job for a bit of that. Some may say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but the types of social cancer I've interacted with only seemed interested in destroying rather than building. And those are often the types who get to slip under the radar, but nonetheless scare off less established users. The names I could rattle off probably won't mean much now, though, as most I haven't seen particularly active within the XIV section. Though maybe that's for the better since they were also of the mind this forum was a "cesspool" or other colorful terminology, but nonetheless persisted in contributing to the muck under the banner of higher intelligence or something silly like that.
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#38REDACTED, Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I think the worse thing the US did was call whipping child abuse. Some of the kids, like killing parents over taking a smartphone away. It is insane, when I have kids they will not have time to make it to a phone before I tare that *** up as my mom did me.
#39 Nov 10 2013 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
Eh, there's a time and a place. I got spanked a grant total of once because I said I would clean my room and I didn't.

My mother slapped me once, but that was because I was having hysterics over something stupid and was putting us both in danger since she was driving and I was in the passenger seat. It didn't hurt so much as it shocked me into shutting up.
#40 Nov 11 2013 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, nice bunch here. Kind of heralded how my experience was gonna be when I got in the game. :)
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