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#77 Oct 24 2013 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Healer privilege too stronk.
Starting on Ultros, then moving to Sargatanus, I've had no problems finding parties in pretty entry-level gear. I did Titan in full AK (chomping toast) without issue.
After hitting 50 near the end of Sept, that is, well behind everyone else, I ran AK once in AF gear, unlocked my GC weapon, used that to farm a set of AK, and I've been using that since. With all my accessories on, I've ~4k hp, >400 MND. Totally skipped DL. Not sure if I want to pad out some parts with Vanya or not at this point. Myth Chest+Pants are BiS, so that leaves belt, boots, hat, gloves to grab.. hum.

I could see grabbing DL if you wanted to hit up Coil immediately, or are a tank class, but for healers + arguably some dps (depending on accuracy requirements) the 2star crafted accessories are a more worthwhile use of Philo tomes. At the very least, you can resell them if you decide to upgrade to Allagan accs.

Parties shouting for gear requirements are fine - it's their right to want a faster run, and you can always queue via DF, or run with friends. The only time it really didn't make sense to me, was people shouting for Relic requirements on Chimaera / Hydra. Yeah, about that...
#78 Oct 25 2013 at 8:57 AM Rating: Excellent
I get it. I totally get it, and I am no longer upset at all by people asking for Relic or DL or whatever for runs. They can ask for whatever, and they will get it or not.

When you get your gear, especially weapon, from item level 50 to item level 70, suddenly your are doing around 150% of your previous damage. I expect this goes for healing and tanking as well. That is a huge increase. By now most people have done runs where everyone is low gear, and runs where everyone is high gear, and all the variations in between.

When you are trying to help your LS friend at Chimera, you have maybe 4/8 LS mates available, 2 of which just hit 50 and don't have much gear. You start shouting, you get 7/8 but now 4~5 of your members are freshly minted level 50's with low gear. At this point, you shout for someone with Relic. Why not? Someone will help just to help. You just need to add a bit of firepower to your party to get over the difficulty hump. This goes for nearly all of the endgame content to some degree.

If people want to blow through speed runs, so? Feeling left out because you need to keep using DF to run CM? So? That party shouting for "Relic onry" represents 5% or the server population. The vast majority of players are in the same boat as you, working on gearing up.

I guess everyone realizes this eventually. There is a progression:

> hit Lvl 50, need gear
> See shouts for runs you need with crazy requirements, feel sad/mad
> find ways to get gear, in DF or with LS
> realize the gear really matters
> have the gear, now you want runs to go faster/need the gear to help lower level friends succeed
> realize there's nothing to be mad about when people ask for high level gear

Not so catch 22 after all.
#79 Oct 28 2013 at 7:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:

I guess everyone realizes this eventually. There is a progression:

> hit Lvl 50, need gear
> See shouts for runs you need with crazy requirements, feel sad/mad
> find ways to get gear, in DF or with LS
> realize the gear really matters
> have the gear, now you want runs to go faster/need the gear to help lower level friends succeed
> realize there's nothing to be mad about when people ask for high level gear

Not so catch 22 after all.


So true. That happened to me almost exactly the same way.
#80 Oct 29 2013 at 12:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm pretty sure this business here is former FFXI players dragging their Delve mentality into FFXIV, where they would often shout for Delve weapon only melee for the very NMs you get the delve weapons from. Maybe they got it from someone else in another game but as far as I am aware it's coming from FFXI, and it's just going to spread like wildfire here with so many playing. So you have either those FFXI players to thank or another game that made this popular.

And yes any job could merit but let's face it, FFXI was so bad that the difference between all welcome and the very best choices was like 8k vs 30k a hour. This isn't quite the same as people demanding grade A weapons for content where said grade A weapons come from. One is saving countless hours of extra meriting. The other is mere minutes saved because someone is in a hurry to stand around in game doing nothing or to log off until the next content patch. How endearing. I'm totally in with not joining any relic groups until I get my relic. oh wait-
#81 Oct 29 2013 at 6:51 AM Rating: Decent
Any job when properly geared could blow merits out of the water. You ever see the numbers a competent PUP could put out, even at 75? At 99 a well geared PUP is friggin broken. And yet, they were laughed at and shunned because playing at that level took a time, money, and skill investment that few people had the patience to pull off. And 90% of PUPs were terrible as a result.

Back in HNM days we had one PUP who would go to Jailer of Love, and then basically sit back and afk while his puppet tossed hate free 1K nukes every twenty seconds or so, while he stayed out of danger range.

I like the fact that no one job in XIV has been designated as undesirable yet (closest is Marauder and they still get a pass because there are too few tanks in the game.)
#82 Oct 29 2013 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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So let me tell you why people fear the Catch 22.

I stopped playing FFXI for about a year. During that year, Meebles, Voidwatch, and a few other items rolled out. When I returned for SoA, the first block came from not having those items, and the second came from missing the window of when players had infinite time to defeat a Delve NM. The problem became being locked out of content because either I was expected to have said content already, or expected to somehow magically catch up to said content without help.

That is why people are saying that the mentality needs to stop. It isn't for today, it's for a year from now. I sincerely hope SE does somehow hear my fervent prayer and make crafted gear that stays a step below endgame at all times. That way, you at least have the option of crafting your re-entry into endgame if nothing else.
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#83 Oct 29 2013 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
So let me tell you why people fear the Catch 22.

I stopped playing FFXI for about a year. During that year, Meebles, Voidwatch, and a few other items rolled out. When I returned for SoA, the first block came from not having those items, and the second came from missing the window of when players had infinite time to defeat a Delve NM. The problem became being locked out of content because either I was expected to have said content already, or expected to somehow magically catch up to said content without help.

That is why people are saying that the mentality needs to stop. It isn't for today, it's for a year from now. I sincerely hope SE does somehow hear my fervent prayer and make crafted gear that stays a step below endgame at all times. That way, you at least have the option of crafting your re-entry into endgame if nothing else.


I can't see why this would NOT be the case. The problem stems from the playerbase not seeing the value in it, even if the lvl of the item is comparable. If you didn't run endgame dungeons to farm tomes/get chest drops, then it probably will not be deemed worthy...which I completely agree is sad and BS. It always comes down to the players canonizing certain things and dismissing other things - even if those things they originally had were less than what they require now.
#84 Oct 29 2013 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Refews wrote:
I can't see why this would NOT be the case. The problem stems from the playerbase not seeing the value in it, even if the lvl of the item is comparable. If you didn't run endgame dungeons to farm tomes/get chest drops, then it probably will not be deemed worthy...which I completely agree is sad and BS. It always comes down to the players canonizing certain things and dismissing other things - even if those things they originally had were less than what they require now.


The problem is that history doesn't bear it out that crafted items can equal dropped. Right now, Delve gear is leaps and bounds above anything that is crafted, unless some major patch has changed it, and either you have to grind older content to get "acceptable" gear to be allowed entry into the velvet-roped "elite" raids, or you have to hope to find others screwed like yourself, and struggle forward. Honestly, I know that it is quite possible to do. They have already talked of lowering requirements for current raided gear, but I'd love to see a way to simply make ilvl-equal gear that you can prove works. Then at least if the elitist block you off, you have some option to find more reasonable minds to band together in your rag-tag crafted stuff and be able to run the dungeons yourselves.
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#85 Oct 29 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Refews wrote:
I can't see why this would NOT be the case. The problem stems from the playerbase not seeing the value in it, even if the lvl of the item is comparable. If you didn't run endgame dungeons to farm tomes/get chest drops, then it probably will not be deemed worthy...which I completely agree is sad and BS. It always comes down to the players canonizing certain things and dismissing other things - even if those things they originally had were less than what they require now.


The problem is that history doesn't bear it out that crafted items can equal dropped. Right now, Delve gear is leaps and bounds above anything that is crafted, unless some major patch has changed it, and either you have to grind older content to get "acceptable" gear to be allowed entry into the velvet-roped "elite" raids, or you have to hope to find others screwed like yourself, and struggle forward. Honestly, I know that it is quite possible to do. They have already talked of lowering requirements for current raided gear, but I'd love to see a way to simply make ilvl-equal gear that you can prove works. Then at least if the elitist block you off, you have some option to find more reasonable minds to band together in your rag-tag crafted stuff and be able to run the dungeons yourselves.


There is in fact crafted gear that is at least on scale with darklight gear (better with materia), and no one as of yet will require you to have anything more than that unless you're going for turn 5 which is the hardest content in game...

And if you have that gear, farming WP or AK with your so-called "rag-tag" team will be a breeze, I really don't see the problem here
#86 Oct 29 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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crasyk wrote:
There is in fact crafted gear that is at least on scale with darklight gear (better with materia), and no one as of yet will require you to have anything more than that unless you're going for turn 5 which is the hardest content in game...

And if you have that gear, farming WP or AK with your so-called "rag-tag" team will be a breeze, I really don't see the problem here


I'm well aware of that being the current state of affairs, what I am saying is that I hope that remains the norm, rather than being a "just for now" thing. Remember, there was a time in FFXI where you mixed in crafted +1 items into your dropped gear as well to make better sets of things. My worry is that crafting will either start requiring dungeons that you need better than current gear (IE requiring dungeon drops of today) to run, or that crafted gear will simply be left totally in the dust.

I know there are people on both sides pushing for what they want (for dungeon grinding/endgame gear drops to be above all, and for crafted gear to be kept up to snuff), and I really hope the balance remains like it is. I hope that this time next year (or the year after), we will have crafted gear better than Coil gear, and endgamers hunting for gear above even that. It would help with the gap that will happen eventually between newcomers to the game and the top-heavy community of tomorrow.
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#87 Oct 29 2013 at 2:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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crasyk wrote:
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Refews wrote:
I can't see why this would NOT be the case. The problem stems from the playerbase not seeing the value in it, even if the lvl of the item is comparable. If you didn't run endgame dungeons to farm tomes/get chest drops, then it probably will not be deemed worthy...which I completely agree is sad and BS. It always comes down to the players canonizing certain things and dismissing other things - even if those things they originally had were less than what they require now.


The problem is that history doesn't bear it out that crafted items can equal dropped. Right now, Delve gear is leaps and bounds above anything that is crafted, unless some major patch has changed it, and either you have to grind older content to get "acceptable" gear to be allowed entry into the velvet-roped "elite" raids, or you have to hope to find others screwed like yourself, and struggle forward. Honestly, I know that it is quite possible to do. They have already talked of lowering requirements for current raided gear, but I'd love to see a way to simply make ilvl-equal gear that you can prove works. Then at least if the elitist block you off, you have some option to find more reasonable minds to band together in your rag-tag crafted stuff and be able to run the dungeons yourselves.


There is in fact crafted gear that is at least on scale with darklight gear (better with materia), and no one as of yet will require you to have anything more than that unless you're going for turn 5 which is the hardest content in game...

And if you have that gear, farming WP or AK with your so-called "rag-tag" team will be a breeze, I really don't see the problem here

Problem with this stuff is it is prohibitively expensive. Farm it yourself and you can just buy DL gear anyway. Adding good materia on top just makes it worse.
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#88 Oct 29 2013 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
crasyk wrote:
There is in fact crafted gear that is at least on scale with darklight gear (better with materia), and no one as of yet will require you to have anything more than that unless you're going for turn 5 which is the hardest content in game...

And if you have that gear, farming WP or AK with your so-called "rag-tag" team will be a breeze, I really don't see the problem here


I'm well aware of that being the current state of affairs, what I am saying is that I hope that remains the norm, rather than being a "just for now" thing. Remember, there was a time in FFXI where you mixed in crafted +1 items into your dropped gear as well to make better sets of things. My worry is that crafting will either start requiring dungeons that you need better than current gear (IE requiring dungeon drops of today) to run, or that crafted gear will simply be left totally in the dust.

I know there are people on both sides pushing for what they want (for dungeon grinding/endgame gear drops to be above all, and for crafted gear to be kept up to snuff), and I really hope the balance remains like it is. I hope that this time next year (or the year after), we will have crafted gear better than Coil gear, and endgamers hunting for gear above even that. It would help with the gap that will happen eventually between newcomers to the game and the top-heavy community of tomorrow.


Only problem I have with this is that any crafted gear that is close to endgame gear or raid gear is vary expensive and I don't see how some newcomer to the game is going to be able to drop a few 100k on one piece of gear to catch up, let alone a whole set. I remember when I played xi (stopped around wotg) crafted gear was just as hard to come by as the endgame gear and+1 gear was even harder then endgame gear to get cuz the cost ends up being so high.
#89 Oct 29 2013 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Not to mention that it is fairly rare in comparison to tome DL gear. Given that, gold sellers will target that. If a crafted whips up an HQ Vanya Robe of Healing and puts it up for say 125k, a gold seller will just buy that and relist it to something that only gil buyers can purchase. Already happening on Mateus.
#90 Oct 29 2013 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah endgame crafting gear is just way too expensive, on Tonberry 1 piece of gear cost about 500k-900k.......
#91 Oct 29 2013 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
I expect that prices will go down as more crafters - and more suppliers of raw materials - reach fifty.

I agree, though, that endgame crafted gear needs to be made from easily obtained or readily had materials to keep the cost down, but not materials so common that it doesn't require some effort to get them. Have the crafting materials be potential treasure chest drops in the high end dungeons, so that the people obtaining them can either make them into the stuff they need, or sell it for money.

Not to beat the XI dead horse, but the Shining Cloth used to make a Noble's Tunic for a WHM could come from one of two places: Direct Kirin drop, or accidental by-product of trying to obtain a much rarer and much more expensive material, the cashmere cloth used in the Sha'ir Manteel for bard. The rarity of the cashmere cloth for so long meant that people would "de-synth" Vir Subligar in the hopes of getting it. A HQ desynth got a shining cloth. Upside: Price of noble's tunic became reasonable. Downside: People had to blow up 8 million gil underwear trying desperately to get cashmere cloth, which only dropped from Vrtra and later on Bahamut. Oy vey!
#92 Oct 29 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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I was thinking of getting a dark steel huby for my drg and it's 500k and then the materia it's around 40k a pop, very unfriendly to new incoming players
#93 Oct 29 2013 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
I expect that prices will go down as more crafters - and more suppliers of raw materials - reach fifty.

I agree, though, that endgame crafted gear needs to be made from easily obtained or readily had materials to keep the cost down, but not materials so common that it doesn't require some effort to get them. Have the crafting materials be potential treasure chest drops in the high end dungeons, so that the people obtaining them can either make them into the stuff they need, or sell it for money.

Not to beat the XI dead horse, but the Shining Cloth used to make a Noble's Tunic for a WHM could come from one of two places: Direct Kirin drop, or accidental by-product of trying to obtain a much rarer and much more expensive material, the cashmere cloth used in the Sha'ir Manteel for bard. The rarity of the cashmere cloth for so long meant that people would "de-synth" Vir Subligar in the hopes of getting it. A HQ desynth got a shining cloth. Upside: Price of noble's tunic became reasonable. Downside: People had to blow up 8 million gil underwear trying desperately to get cashmere cloth, which only dropped from Vrtra and later on Bahamut. Oy vey!

The dungeon mats have felt fairly steady on Diabolos, maybe even climbing slowly in price. More people leveling up will just mean more demand on the whole, so you're only likely to see cost reductions in (brief) undercutting wars. If you catch one of those, great, but the only way I see stuff like the Vanya set lowering in price is if the number of tomes needed to craft a particular component is reduced significantly or the number of these things is cut... like not needing 9 peacock ore for an ingot.

Otherwise, the RMT end can be circumvented as long as fair access is maintained. This is achieved by individual self-instanced nodes on the gathering end, but can be expanded in other ways. Though now that I think about it, in time SE could also chop off the star/control requirements for these things, too. But the base ingredients are still a pretty big bottleneck since they're reliant on people who don't actually need DL gear to produce.
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#94 Oct 30 2013 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Downside: People had to blow up 8 million gil underwear trying desperately to get cashmere cloth, which only dropped from Vrtra and later on Bahamut. Oy vey!


People used to desynth those? I just wore them around town. Smiley: sly
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#95 Oct 30 2013 at 9:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Think that was more a thing during inflation when the cloth would've sold for at least 2x the undies' value. But a mix of additional sources, people getting banned/quitting, and new gear deflated the temptation/risk for this particular option. Suppose the general permanency of gear in XI's economy didn't hurt, either. Stupidly overpriced either way in its prime, I think.
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#96 Oct 30 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Wouldn't being a tank or healer make getting your toms faster? Just wondering if the minority can farm for their gear faster?
#97 Oct 30 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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To everyone who said "the crafted gear is too expensive", do you want it to be cheap? Do you want the second best gear in the game (only second to ilvl 90 gear) to be easily accessible to newcommers? It's like you expect to buy the game, lvl to 50 and be top geared without effort at all. I'm not trying to say "you're noobs go lrn2play", I'm just saying if EVERYTHING was easy and took no time at all, we would all quit the game in a month out of boredom.
#98 Oct 30 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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crasyk wrote:
To everyone who said "the crafted gear is too expensive", do you want it to be cheap? Do you want the second best gear in the game (only second to ilvl 90 gear) to be easily accessible to newcommers? It's like you expect to buy the game, lvl to 50 and be top geared without effort at all. I'm not trying to say "you're noobs go lrn2play", I'm just saying if EVERYTHING was easy and took no time at all, we would all quit the game in a month out of boredom.


How about some crafted gear that isn't quite so strong and also isn't so damn expensive?

Crafters need to be able to make more high(ish) level gear if we're to remain relevant.
#99 Oct 30 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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crasyk wrote:
To everyone who said "the crafted gear is too expensive", do you want it to be cheap? Do you want the second best gear in the game (only second to ilvl 90 gear) to be easily accessible to newcommers? It's like you expect to buy the game, lvl to 50 and be top geared without effort at all. I'm not trying to say "you're noobs go lrn2play", I'm just saying if EVERYTHING was easy and took no time at all, we would all quit the game in a month out of boredom.



That is not the point. The point is that upper tier crafted stuff gets put on the market by legit crafters for a price, then RMT comes along and easily forks over that gil in order to relist it x3-x5 of what it was - putting it well outta range of any reasonable expectations and makes grinding for AF+1 gear much less time consuming than farming stuff for gil to buy it. I have no issues with a Vanya Robe of whatever being 200-300k from a real person, but on my server, Mateus - a new server - those are going for 750-900k. Anyone on that server from the get-go will maybe have that if they played a crap ton since the server opened. For ONE single chest piece.

Crafters gets paid sure, but their wares never see the light of day because they most likely will be behind the RMT wall (read: you need to pay real money for your virtual goods). So you are thrown back into the fray of having to do dungeons to get gear that require said gear to run...

But this is more a gripe about RMT rather than the community consuming itself so carry on with the show good people...
#100 Oct 30 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Pickins wrote:
crasyk wrote:
To everyone who said "the crafted gear is too expensive", do you want it to be cheap? Do you want the second best gear in the game (only second to ilvl 90 gear) to be easily accessible to newcommers? It's like you expect to buy the game, lvl to 50 and be top geared without effort at all. I'm not trying to say "you're noobs go lrn2play", I'm just saying if EVERYTHING was easy and took no time at all, we would all quit the game in a month out of boredom.


How about some crafted gear that isn't quite so strong and also isn't so damn expensive?

Crafters need to be able to make more high(ish) level gear if we're to remain relevant.


It's called one star gear. The militia gear which is I lvl 55 can be melded with materia for very good results. I made the entire astral set for my blm and I now currently have 4800 HP. While my main stat isn't ilvl90, my remaining stats are. By putting 5 melds on the ilvl70 accessories, I gained a great boost in crit/det (320)/spell speed reaching 500+, while my main stat is stuck at 470.

Seeing as ilvl55 is a lower i lvl, you would probably want to put lower teir materia on it (III). You would still have stats comprable to ilvl 70, but your main stat would be lower (Depending on your weapon). There are options for everyone, however what you just asked for already exists in the game. Even though you say you want "not so strong" gear, I don't believe you because that "high-ish" gear already exists in the form of 1 star crafts. It's quit easy to get AK gear/WP gear/Darklight Gear. But the stats on those are a bit all over the place, and doesn't optimize our jobs for the best results. It simply gives you a bit of everything, not specializing in the stats that really make you shine.

I hope people realize how much the "I want it now" mindset is driving these comments. Since the game started I had my eye on those crafted pieces, because I knew how much potential they had with materia, it wasn't only recently I was able to craft them (2 weeks ago). The Philosophy items are now running for 35k each, and seeing as having all crafts 50 makes HQ guaranteed, you're looking at spending 315k-945k for items that cost 1-3 of the phil items respectively.

I know the concept of "work with what you've got" is lost on many people. If you have a gear set goal in mind, then you should work towards it, and not wait on the developers to make it easy for you to do so. I don't understand these craft-centric posts. You want things to be cheaper, but you want to make ALL the big gilz while crafting. Which is it? Set a singular goal and aim for it.
#101 Oct 30 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Refews wrote:
crasyk wrote:
To everyone who said "the crafted gear is too expensive", do you want it to be cheap? Do you want the second best gear in the game (only second to ilvl 90 gear) to be easily accessible to newcommers? It's like you expect to buy the game, lvl to 50 and be top geared without effort at all. I'm not trying to say "you're noobs go lrn2play", I'm just saying if EVERYTHING was easy and took no time at all, we would all quit the game in a month out of boredom.



That is not the point. The point is that upper tier crafted stuff gets put on the market by legit crafters for a price, then RMT comes along and easily forks over that gil in order to relist it x3-x5 of what it was - putting it well outta range of any reasonable expectations and makes grinding for AF+1 gear much less time consuming than farming stuff for gil to buy it. I have no issues with a Vanya Robe of whatever being 200-300k from a real person, but on my server, Mateus - a new server - those are going for 750-900k. Anyone on that server from the get-go will maybe have that if they played a crap ton since the server opened. For ONE single chest piece.

Crafters gets paid sure, but their wares never see the light of day because they most likely will be behind the RMT wall (read: you need to pay real money for your virtual goods). So you are thrown back into the fray of having to do dungeons to get gear that require said gear to run...

But this is more a gripe about RMT rather than the community consuming itself so carry on with the show good people...


That's an entirely different discussion though. RMT is and will continue to be a problem as long as people buy from them. This however, has nothing at all to do with there not being craftable alternatives (which there is, for every level). Any legit player has both the resources and means to get these items by harvesting and crafting themselves (or make friends who have DoH and/or DoL leveled), but everyone seems to forget it's possible and creates this big illusion of RMT running the game.

Taking your example of the Vanya robe, how much does the mats sell for (here, any legit crafter who sell for 200k, gets the mats for cheaper than 200k, so can you) ? Is it possible to buy those instead and have someone craft for you? Is it possible to harvest the materials yourself? It's really not as hard as a lot of people make it out to be, it just takes time.

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