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Suggestions for improving Dungeons: First-Timers vs. Speed Follow

#27 Sep 21 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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425 posts
The healer in me doesn't agree with letting him die over that, but to each their own I guess.

and apparently, not all cutscenes can be viewed again in the inn..so skipping isn't really an option to appease the impatient. .
#28 Sep 21 2013 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
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1,004 posts
perhaps what i think they should do is to give an incentive to help out people that are new. Like for instance, instead of getting 100 tokens for a clear, give them an additional 10 tokens for each person who has cleared it less than 3 times. That way the new people can get their clear and experience inside the dungeon, while the people going for tokens get what they came for.

personally i don't mind helping people who are new through a dungeon, but it gets tiring explaining the same thing over and over. That and the people who do exactly the opposite of what you say. I don't know how much clearer i can be when i tell people to "bring the boss in the middle if you get hate and don't move". They start running in huge circles anyway. But i digress.

Although I did see a guy who had a macro for what to do during each part of CM which i thought was funny. It must have taken him an hour at least to get all those macros done.
#29 Sep 21 2013 at 6:34 PM Rating: Default
You give someone an incentive, they're just going to become even more of an *******. That's like having a mentor program with incentives on Dragon Nest. The mentors don't give a ****, they just want their damn incentive and then they'll be gone like the wind.
#30 Sep 21 2013 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
sandpark wrote:

“Reality [...] at every level from photons to philosophical fancies to the consciousness of living organisms was fluid [...]. To break apart and confine this reality into separate categories created by the mind was foolish and futile, much like trying to capture a ray of light inside a dark wooden box. This urge to categorize was the true fall of man [...] the infinite became finite, good opposed evil, thoughts hardened into beliefs, one's joys and discoveries became dreadful certainties, man became alienated from what he perceived as other ways and other things, and, ultimately, divided against himself, body and soul. [...] Always seeking meaning, always making their lives safe and comfortable, human beings do not truly live.”
― David Zindell, The Broken God


Where did you find this? Do want more.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the reference!
#31 Sep 22 2013 at 1:26 AM Rating: Excellent
ImmolatedHope wrote:
You give someone an incentive, they're just going to become even more of an @#%^. That's like having a mentor program with incentives on Dragon Nest. The mentors don't give a sh*t, they just want their damn incentive and then they'll be gone like the wind.


I see what you're saying. Honestly, I'm missing the community feel of XI. I don't know how to recapture that feeling.
#32 Sep 22 2013 at 2:45 AM Rating: Excellent
Even if you add a speed run option, eventually it will become the only option that anybody chooses. Then, new people will click that box after hearing that they will wait over an hour with the regular run and the "speed run" choice will be filled with "Hey! First time tanking this, anything I should know?"

Then, the impatient will be begging for

[ ] Castrum Meridianum
[ ] Castrum Meridianum (Speed run)
[ ] Castrum Meridianum (no newbs)

Just get over it and understand that if you enter a story line instance without entering as a pre-made group, then there is a chance that you will clear the dungeon 6 whole minutes slower than usual. Also, try not to run ahead of your healer before they cast Protect. Nobody appreciates that.
#33 Sep 22 2013 at 4:34 AM Rating: Good
It's stuff like this that's going to cost SE some subs more than anything imo. I have some friends who are quite casual with MMO's, and I want them to stick around. But if they run into ANYTHING like this with the main story line, they'll end their sub without thinking twice about it. They understand there's an endgame scene, they don't care for it, but they think they should at least be able to do the main plot in peace.

My guess at some point is SE will force you to fight 90%+ of the trash mobs along the way somehow, negating the speedrun. It really sucks that the endgame scene is falling over with the casual folk who just want to have a good time and not worry about that crap. Stuff like Sky gods, Sea Jailers, Dynamis, etc were never part of the main story in XI, you had no reason to do them unless you wanted to for gear. It needs to be the same. How about just adding a couple more optional dungeons that don't affect the storyline and losing the tome drops in CM?
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#34 Sep 22 2013 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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181 posts
I'm so lost, and kind of annoyed with people in this thread. If you don't wanna be bothered by cs and people doing the mission for the first time just take 10 min and shout for a farming party and do a many speed runs a you want. Know one says you have to use df to form a pug.
#35 Sep 22 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you don't wanna be bothered by cs and people doing the mission for the first time just take 10 min and shout for a farming party and do a many speed runs a you want.


This, a billion times.

I'll probably end up shouting for a group and asking FC members for help when I do this for my main story, just so I don't need to worry about cutscene drama.
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#36 Sep 22 2013 at 11:14 AM Rating: Default
Or better yet, why not make dungeons that can be solo'd for players who just want to farm ***** their items. They get 100 minutes, because granted it's going to take them a hell of a lot longer to get through it.
#37 Sep 22 2013 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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181 posts
ImmolatedHope wrote:
Or better yet, why not make dungeons that can be solo'd for players who just want to farm ***** their items. They get 100 minutes, because granted it's going to take them a hell of a lot longer to get through it.


Or why not just make this game off line? I mean there are not that many options for group content so why take what little there is and make it smaller. Plus on a side note that would increase that amount off instance ran on the server about 4 to 8 times.
#38 Sep 22 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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3,530 posts
IKickYoDog wrote:
[ ] Castrum Meridianum
[ ] Castrum Meridianum (Speed run)
[ ] Castrum Meridianum (no newbs)

Just get over it and understand that if you enter a story line instance without entering as a pre-made group, then there is a chance that you will clear the dungeon 6 whole minutes slower than usual.


I want:

[ ] Castrum Meridianum (players who already have full Castrum Meridianum equipment)
#39 Sep 22 2013 at 12:12 PM Rating: Default
domice wrote:
ImmolatedHope wrote:
Or better yet, why not make dungeons that can be solo'd for players who just want to farm ***** their items. They get 100 minutes, because granted it's going to take them a hell of a lot longer to get through it.


Or why not just make this game off line? I mean there are not that many options for group content so why take what little there is and make it smaller. Plus on a side note that would increase that amount off instance ran on the server about 4 to 8 times.


KaneKitty wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
[ ] Castrum Meridianum
[ ] Castrum Meridianum (Speed run)
[ ] Castrum Meridianum (no newbs)

Just get over it and understand that if you enter a story line instance without entering as a pre-made group, then there is a chance that you will clear the dungeon 6 whole minutes slower than usual.


I want:

[ ] Castrum Meridianum (players who already have full Castrum Meridianum equipment)



Unacceptable.

#40 Sep 23 2013 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
KaneKitty wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
[ ] Castrum Meridianum
[ ] Castrum Meridianum (Speed run)
[ ] Castrum Meridianum (no newbs)

Just get over it and understand that if you enter a story line instance without entering as a pre-made group, then there is a chance that you will clear the dungeon 6 whole minutes slower than usual.


I want:

[ ] Castrum Meridianum (players who already have full Castrum Meridianum equipment)


Would you like a little Delve with your CM???
#41 Sep 23 2013 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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2,214 posts
This is definitely a problem with player mentality. I actually did a run with our FC to help someone complete this run for the first time. The person was the tank, and after remembering my nightmares with this (I can't tell you how many times I got yelled at my first PUG run of this because I did this wrong, or that wrong), I was taking the time to explain what to do, and the person was watching their cutscenes.

Needless to say, people got impatient, started running to places they knew better than to go to, we ended up taking far longer than expected. I personally died 5 times in the run trying to save people, or to prevent control loss from people getting ahead of themselves.

And that is not unique. When it comes to CM and CP for that matter, people need to remember that sometimes it's a persons first run. They need to step back, take a minute, and walk the person through. It doesn't matter if it's your 10th run or 100th run. Yes it's tedious, but for them it's new. They don't know where to go. They may not know how to aim the canons, or line up the mobs, or to return at a specific point rather than run back.

The timer has nothing to do with it. It only takes 10 extra minutes (on a dungeon that can be run in 30 minutes, that's not horrible) to help someone learn it for the first time. And while some people (I took 4 runs before I had everything down to tank it) will take longer to learn than others, we all end up spamming these things to death. But we should at least have the courtesy to remember what it was like the first time.
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#42 Sep 23 2013 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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3,737 posts
Quote:
When it comes to CM and CP for that matter, people need to remember that sometimes it's a persons first run


The game is less than a month old. It's USUALLY someone's first run.

The assumption of an all-veteran party might (and I stress might) be understandable after the game has been out for a few YEARS. But not for a few WEEKS.

Oh, and to follow up on one of my previous posts. This weekend I lived the dream and did CM and Prae for the first time, and watched ALL the cutscenes. Because the story is actually pretty good, and I want it. Only had someone get annoyed with me (and the SMN, also on his first run) for doing that once, and then they shut up.
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svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#43 Sep 23 2013 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,310 posts
Solution: SE should award 100% extra tombstones for letting newcomers finish all their cutscenes to the end. That way everyone will insist you finish them damn it!
#44 Sep 23 2013 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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109 posts
Speed run mentality has ruined dungeon crawling in MMOs. It's no longer dungeon crawling it is dungeon sprinting and it's BORING just slightly less boring than fighting trash. The saddest part is that many people can run from monsters and sprint and jump like pros yet they can't play their class worth a damn when it's time to kill stuff.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2013 5:21pm by KingoGoodbomber
#45 Sep 23 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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109 posts
The "speed run" box is a terrible idea because it merely encourages speed running. There should be a bonus for timely completion but it should be based on efficient DPS and not based on Sprint.
#46 Sep 23 2013 at 3:33 PM Rating: Default
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109 posts
since Yoshi is all about lifting from successful MMOs, IMO a good example of how to properly do a "speed run" was getting an Amani War Bear mount in Burning Crusade.

It took a decent group (even in full T6 it could come down to the wire), provided a good reward and couldn't be cheesed with something simple and stupid like Aspect of the Cheetah (as far as I know).
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