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Will powerleveling be allowed in 2.0?Follow

#77 Jul 26 2013 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
We've both seen what RDM did to XI's endgame with unchecked DoT/Kite tactics. Hopefully XIV doesn't permit such stupidity on anything meaningful, as the inevitable outcome tends to mean a class suffers in the future because of it. But when I mention ranged superiority, that extends into other games, too, where melees simply lack the option to kite indefinitely while doing damage or mitigating it enough to do what they want to. Hell, I'd probably be giddy if DEF/VIT is actually done right this time around.


It's pretty normal for bosses to be immune to snares and roots, that tends to take care of ridiculous kiting on bosses that are not meant to be kited.
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#78 Jul 26 2013 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Seriha wrote:
We've both seen what RDM did to XI's endgame with unchecked DoT/Kite tactics. Hopefully XIV doesn't permit such stupidity on anything meaningful, as the inevitable outcome tends to mean a class suffers in the future because of it. But when I mention ranged superiority, that extends into other games, too, where melees simply lack the option to kite indefinitely while doing damage or mitigating it enough to do what they want to. Hell, I'd probably be giddy if DEF/VIT is actually done right this time around.


It's pretty normal for bosses to be immune to snares and roots, that tends to take care of ridiculous kiting on bosses that are not meant to be kited.

Wasn't always the case in XI, sadly. There's also pathing (some people exploited fences and other terrain to trick mobs into taking u-turns) and the mob's actual ******** Some having no ranged attacks at all, or being limited to TP use, let people string things along further. Could also consider movement speed gear and abilities a factor, too. Some even outright speedhacked to do the **** they did.

The consequences to RDM were still pretty harsh in the long term, though, and the job honestly hasn't recovered from the mix of neglect and resistance to suggestions for fear of recreating those old days.
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#79 Jul 27 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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On terms of kiting, unlike in XI where you could run something completely across the zone... There is a restrictive mechanic in XIV that prevents a player from moving the target too far out of their natural spawn area. If you do... and this includes FATEs, you will lose aggro (not bad if you didn't want to fight in the first place). As well as, the Target will instantly full heal upon returning to their spawn location. Needless to say, Archers and DoM (current main ranged attackers) will have to restrict their kiting... Said person will have a ton of pissed off players if they accidentally run say ex. Lazy Laurence to his reset border... after he's been taken down to 10%.
#80 Jul 27 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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DamienSScott wrote:

Besides, this whole point is moot considering that overworld mobs are so easy. If you want more of a "challenge" just do levequests on +4. No one can attack those mobs unless they are in your party. Problem solved.

Edited, Jul 26th 2013 3:16pm by DamienSScott


This. Why anyone would want to spend more than half their playing time solo in what's supposed to be a teamwork oriented genre I'll never understand but yes, levequests are there to take you right to the top.
#81 Jul 27 2013 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
One of the things I actually liked about Guild Wars 2 was how anyone could attack anything.

It's a shift from the old days of gaming, when EVERYTHING was a competition, right down to the ability to claim a monster to get the exp from it. However, times have changed... once you remove the need to "compete" for open-world monsters, there are not as many reasons to seriously get angry over other people jumping in.

In other words, the open world of gameplay is becoming less competitive and more cooperative. I'm a fan of that, but I know there are gamers who will really miss the constant competition.


Speaking of competition, remember those flame wars years ago in the XI forums arguing back and forth whether or not using provoke to pull was unfair? I think ARR is going in the right direction.
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#82 Jul 27 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
One of the things I actually liked about Guild Wars 2 was how anyone could attack anything.

It's a shift from the old days of gaming, when EVERYTHING was a competition, right down to the ability to claim a monster to get the exp from it. However, times have changed... once you remove the need to "compete" for open-world monsters, there are not as many reasons to seriously get angry over other people jumping in.

In other words, the open world of gameplay is becoming less competitive and more cooperative. I'm a fan of that, but I know there are gamers who will really miss the constant competition.


I'm a teamwork centric player but there's nothing wrong with competitiveness either. I suppose it's a balancing act. In XI I put in a lot of time solo to gain some sought after EX/Rare loot. There was a sense of accomplishment when I would beat out a RNG and THF duo as a RDM/THF on any given NM. That kind of smirk you get when you get drop no money can buy.

Contrary to how some of my posts may sound there is room for individual accomplishment in MMO. And it's highly rewarding in a psychological sense. There are better ways to make me feel I am part of a social environment than to simply allow Jane Anyone to jump in on my claim and grab credit for what I almost killed.

And players will get angry for whatever. So we move from "you took my claim" to "why didn't anyone jump in and help me". We're simply removing one extreme expectation for another. Suddenly I will become responsible for the the player who bit off more than he/she could chew because I happened to be passing by. Extreme perhaps. But not unlikely.


Edited, Jul 27th 2013 3:05pm by ShindaUsagi
#83 Jul 27 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Contrary to how some of my posts may sound there is room for individual accomplishment in MMO. And it's highly rewarding in a psychological sense. There are better ways to make me feel I am part of a social environment than to simply allow Jane Anyone to jump in on my claim and grab credit for what I almost killed.

I'll agree there's room, but emphasis shouldn't be on the expense of others. GW2's achievement system has gone through a bit of a metamorphosis since the game's launch, but right now I think it's a decent system of "things to do" that an individual might chase. Personally, I'd never flesh out the PvP category, but stuff like, "Kill 10/100/500/1000 spider type enemies" is something workable, even if a bit grindy. I think tracking what FATEs we've participated in would also be fun, with little rewards tied to completing categories in zones. Fair access is generally what I shoot for.

Quote:
And players will get angry for whatever. So we move from "you took my claim" to "why didn't anyone jump in and help me". We're simply removing one extreme expectation for another. Suddenly I will become responsible for the the player who bit off more than he/she could chew because I happened to be passing by. Extreme perhaps. But not unlikely.

I touched on this a bit, but I also think there's something to be said about willfully biting off more than you can chew. If you're willfully engaging mobs levels above you, the possibility of death should be on your mind. As is, people have a higher potential of being able to help with XIV's system compared to XI. In turn, should they be willing and aware (the telepathy I also mentioned includes all kind of personal intent), they have the means to step in instead of waiting for someone to CFH (if they ever did, because CFH meant loot/EXP loss). If anything, XI's system encouraged watching people die, as you could then snipe a weakened foe for profit. MPK was also quite real, especially at HNMs like Fafnir/Nidhoog and Tiamat.
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#84 Jul 27 2013 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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ShindaUsagi wrote:
And players will get angry for whatever. So we move from "you took my claim" to "why didn't anyone jump in and help me". We're simply removing one extreme expectation for another.

The good thing about the "extreme" to which FFXIV's pendulum has swung is that its a situation that resolves itself much more quickly. In FFXI, two groups fighting over claims could butt heads for hours, depending on how stubborn the players are. In the case of FFXIV, a player who didn't get outside help will simply die (if they truly needed the help). Problem solved!
#85 Jul 27 2013 at 11:32 PM Rating: Decent
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IMFW wrote:
Im not trying to be a sour or nothing, its just a major pet peeve of mine in video games and life, i dont like being helped if i didnt ask for help..


no time like the present to get the @#%^ over it.


edit for topical material: the system as it is now makes a lot more sense from a healthy gameplay perspective than, say, XI's "I claimed this crab so you can't hit it unless i call for help and lose all rewards for killing it" system.

Edited, Jul 28th 2013 1:39am by Llester
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#86 Jul 28 2013 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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This Thread has helped me change my mind about helping/being helped. I'm all for it now.
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#87 Jul 28 2013 at 5:14 PM Rating: Default
Seriha wrote:
We've both seen what RDM did to XI's endgame with unchecked DoT/Kite tactics. Hopefully XIV doesn't permit such stupidity on anything meaningful, as the inevitable outcome tends to mean a class suffers in the future because of it. But when I mention ranged superiority, that extends into other games, too, where melees simply lack the option to kite indefinitely while doing damage or mitigating it enough to do what they want to. Hell, I'd probably be giddy if DEF/VIT is actually done right this time around.


I think you forgot the prime reason for this exploit, Utsusemi abuse. I'm hoping that when NIN is announced that shadows no longer ruin the NIN class by making them some psuedo tank or giving gimped shadows so classes can kite forever.

Edit: All those excuses you made about RDM are b.s. and you know it. RDM was working as intended, but people like you wanted more from a class that was supposed to be average. The problem is average wasn't good enough and many jobs fell victim to that reality. Nobody on the FFXIV forums wishes to hear your emo rants about why SE screwed over RDM in FFXI.



Edited, Jul 28th 2013 6:22pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#88 Jul 28 2013 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I think you forgot the prime reason for this exploit, Utsusemi abuse. I'm hoping that when NIN is announced that shadows no longer ruin the NIN class by making them some psuedo tank or giving gimped shadows so classes can kite forever.


I think a Decoy move would be more suitable from a balance perspective. If they aren't considered tanks (and I hope that they aren't) this would give them a decent "get out of jail free" card. If they do end up with shadows it will probably end up on a 2-3 minute cooldown and only avoid a couple attacks.
#89 Jul 28 2013 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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"Hey guys, I have this awesome idea for a class. Let's make it mediocre to everything and make all mobs that matter immune to things it does so nobody will invite it to anything."
That's what happened to RDM. The class that was never a melee due to lacking tools, the class that faded into obscurity as a third-rate healer once colibri went out of style, the class you'd never take over a BLM or eventually SCH for nuking, the class that would never tank again after a blanket adjustment to resisted debuffs offered the coup de grace to their alleged primary toolkit, the class nobody wanted in Abyssea, the class that eventually brought no unique procs to Voidwatch, and even now doesn't offer anything unique to Adoulin content beyond a slightly higher MACC to debuffs that do land.

Utsu helped in some solos, but wasn't required for all. Nevermind how many other classes were ignored for their own soloing. Jack Of All Trades, Suck At Them All does not and will never work in an MMO. So, rest assured I'll be there telling SE not to @#%^ up RDM when it's on the table for XIV, but don't even dare try to trivialize DoT/Kite tactics as a strength of ranged classes across games and an important factor for balancing content. XI may have brought its own unique conditions with no leashing or Utsu, but the rest is still very real with no shortage of people putting down RDM in the past because of those things.

Edited, Jul 28th 2013 11:06pm by Seriha
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#90 Jul 28 2013 at 9:15 PM Rating: Default
Seriha wrote:

The class that was never a melee due to lacking tools, the class that faded into obscurity as a third-rate healer once colibri went out of style, the class you'd never take over a BLM or eventually SCH for nuking, the class that would never tank again after a blanket adjustment to resisted debuffs offered the coup de grace to their alleged primary toolkit, the class nobody wanted in Abyssea, the class that eventually brought no unique procs to Voidwatch, and even now doesn't offer anything unique to Adoulin content beyond a slightly higher MACC to debuffs that do land.

Utsu helped in some solos, but wasn't required for all. Nevermind how many other classes were ignored for their own soloing. Jack Of All Trades, Suck At Them All does not and will never work in an MMO. So, rest assured I'll be there telling SE not to @#%^ up RDM when it's on the table for XIV, but don't even dare try to trivialize DoT/Kite tactics as a strength of ranged classes across games and an important factor for balancing content. XI may have brought its own unique conditions with no leashing or Utsu, but the rest is still very real with no shortage of people putting down RDM in the past because of those things.

Edited, Jul 28th 2013 11:06pm by Seriha


RDM wasn't needed to melee, that's what BLU was for... RDM v2. I'll agree that RDM lost a purpose to be in the party, but I don't agree with you on why it happened. You have this crazy conspiracy theory that SE screwed over the class just because a few RDM's abused the game mechanics. Instead of just making mobs resist the 50th Bio II cast, they rather just nerf the class. Look at FFXIV today, there is basically 1 healer class and 1 healing JOB. I'm not counting SCH from I heard either. If RDM does come to FF14, it will be very similiar to WHM and BLM. Heck BLM already has our Convert ability. Aero spells are like Dia/Bio from FFXI too. Utsesuemi was utilized more often than you like to admit. The best solos were always done with /nin. Later on things changed a bit, but that was after lv75 cap anyways.
#91 Jul 28 2013 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh how much fun I had watching a RDM spend 5 hours soloing Narasimha in Labyrinth of Onzozo while EXPing back in the day. I hope whatever he was going for was worth the Shihei XD.

If they brought RDM to FFXIV maybe it would revolve around en-spells.. oh wait, no elemental resistances.. maybe they will apply debuffs? SCH seems to be taking the most likely healing role that they would have with Regen based healing. I just don't really see a place for it unless they come up with a new mechanic for them.
#92 Jul 28 2013 at 9:40 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Seriha wrote:
We've both seen what RDM did to XI's endgame with unchecked DoT/Kite tactics. Hopefully XIV doesn't permit such stupidity on anything meaningful, as the inevitable outcome tends to mean a class suffers in the future because of it. But when I mention ranged superiority, that extends into other games, too, where melees simply lack the option to kite indefinitely while doing damage or mitigating it enough to do what they want to. Hell, I'd probably be giddy if DEF/VIT is actually done right this time around.


I think you forgot the prime reason for this exploit, Utsusemi abuse. I'm hoping that when NIN is announced that shadows no longer ruin the NIN class by making them some psuedo tank or giving gimped shadows so classes can kite forever.

Edit: All those excuses you made about RDM are b.s. and you know it. RDM was working as intended, but people like you wanted more from a class that was supposed to be average. The problem is average wasn't good enough and many jobs fell victim to that reality. Nobody on the FFXIV forums wishes to hear your emo rants about why SE screwed over RDM in FFXI.



Edited, Jul 28th 2013 6:22pm by ShadowedgeFFXI

The problem wasn't ninja having shadows, the problem was shadows being subbed. Had it been only sub-able by classes that don't have ranged or self heal abilities it would have leveled the playing field a bit for solo ability between melee and magic users. There should be different types of tanks strong in one area but weaker than others in other areas. I don't want to see NInja be a tank period in ARR, but a damage dealer.

Supposed to be average wouldn't cut it XI because of the highly forced grouping and stricter subbed restrictions. Average to above average works just fine in ARR with classes though.
#93 Jul 28 2013 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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We're veering off topic for sure, but RDM's big issue in XI was lacking synergy. If you subbed NIN or WAR, your mage side suffered. If you subbed WHM/BLM/SCH, your melee side suffered. There was no good hybrid food, either. From there, it just had no unique tools to really stand out. I've babbled incessantly about things SE could do to improve XI's iteration, but in a best case scenario, you'd get ideas myself or others proposed winding up on new jobs, like BLU and Diffusion or SCH's Accession AoEing buffs. The aspect of the playerbase that felt a RDM should never, ever swing at a mob didn't help things, either. So, while it might not have entirely been Tanaka pissed about his babies being soloed, there were mixed signals coming from the community and an eventual chicken and egg scenario had been established. Did nobody melee on RDM because they preferred to imitate a backline mage? Or did people not melee on RDM because it had no tools do it effectively? My general sentiment on how game mechanics influence player behavior applies here, and I err toward the second question if solely because job theme suffers if you eliminate a third of the job's foundation.

Now, how will XIV do it? Eh, I'd need to know what kind of starter job they'd pick. Some seem to have an interest with Musketeer, but that's too ranged attack-y for my liking with guns and stuff. As a branching path, they could emulate the BLU and RDM dynamic with a new base class, but I feel like BLU doesn't really fit within XIV at the moment. It also doesn't feel like a good alternate for Gladiator/Paladin as much as some liked tanking on RDM. If they really want to run with the debuffer idea, then you can pile on the secondary effects to various melee/magical attacks and do the job. But to make a hybrid work in this day and age, you can't do the one or the other style XI tried to employed. It all needs to come together smoothly to avoid atrophy of one aspect.
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#94 Jul 28 2013 at 10:03 PM Rating: Default
Seriha wrote:


Now, how will XIV do it? Eh, I'd need to know what kind of starter job they'd pick. Some seem to have an interest with Musketeer, but that's too ranged attack-y for my liking with guns and stuff. As a branching path, they could emulate the BLU and RDM dynamic with a new base class, but I feel like BLU doesn't really fit within XIV at the moment. It also doesn't feel like a good alternate for Gladiator/Paladin as much as some liked tanking on RDM. If they really want to run with the debuffer idea, then you can pile on the secondary effects to various melee/magical attacks and do the job. But to make a hybrid work in this day and age, you can't do the one or the other style XI tried to employed. It all needs to come together smoothly to avoid atrophy of one aspect.


I suppose since all the classes are basically DoT to some degree and no class strikes me as the uber DD in this game, RDM will do fine. BRD is a good example of how RDM will work when included to the mix. I disagree with you about BLU though. FFXIV would obviously change how you learn spells, but I could definitely see BLU being awesome here. As for RDM, I'd say a mix of BLM and WHM with some DPS elements like BRD only RDM would be a front line class like PLD.
#95 Jul 28 2013 at 10:06 PM Rating: Default
sandpark wrote:

The problem wasn't ninja having shadows, the problem was shadows being subbed. Had it been only sub-able by classes that don't have ranged or self heal abilities it would have leveled the playing field a bit for solo ability between melee and magic users. There should be different types of tanks strong in one area but weaker than others in other areas. I don't want to see NInja be a tank period in ARR, but a damage dealer.

Supposed to be average wouldn't cut it XI because of the highly forced grouping and stricter subbed restrictions. Average to above average works just fine in ARR with classes though.


Agree on all points. If SE ***** up Ninja again making it a tank, I'm done with them and everything they make. NIN is a DD, period!
#96 Jul 28 2013 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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I don't see a reason why BLU absolutely has to be shackled to RDM in FFXIV. I can see why someone would suggest Musketeer because of Blue Bullets, but with all the other weaponry of characters using Blue Magic in the previous games (Staves, Whips, Swords/Scimitars, Spears), they could fit in any of the cities under anything. It wouldn't even be a stretch to give them a totally new weapon of their own.
#97 Jul 28 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Agree on all points. If SE @#%^s up Ninja again making it a tank, I'm done with them and everything they make. NIN is a DD, period!

Whoever did the most damage was the tank anyways. :P
#98 Jul 28 2013 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Seriha wrote:


Now, how will XIV do it? Eh, I'd need to know what kind of starter job they'd pick. Some seem to have an interest with Musketeer, but that's too ranged attack-y for my liking with guns and stuff. As a branching path, they could emulate the BLU and RDM dynamic with a new base class, but I feel like BLU doesn't really fit within XIV at the moment. It also doesn't feel like a good alternate for Gladiator/Paladin as much as some liked tanking on RDM. If they really want to run with the debuffer idea, then you can pile on the secondary effects to various melee/magical attacks and do the job. But to make a hybrid work in this day and age, you can't do the one or the other style XI tried to employed. It all needs to come together smoothly to avoid atrophy of one aspect.


I suppose since all the classes are basically DoT to some degree and no class strikes me as the uber DD in this game, RDM will do fine. BRD is a good example of how RDM will work when included to the mix. I disagree with you about BLU though. FFXIV would obviously change how you learn spells, but I could definitely see BLU being awesome here. As for RDM, I'd say a mix of BLM and WHM with some DPS elements like BRD only RDM would be a front line class like PLD.

It's kind of funny because I've seen some people pissed BRD isn't like its XI incarnation. Either way, speculation only goes so far here. My snipe on BLU in XIV hinges on how the classes have been established at the moment as mainly their default class with then a few of the job's abilities added on top. BLU's pretty much rooted in being a bunch of monster abilities, so a starting class will need to account for this in some manner unless SE wants to deviate from their established paradigm. If we're not going to pair it with RDM under the premise of "melee mage" then I would open myself to either Mime or Beastmaster. The first under the premise of imitation, though maybe your party members instead of mobs. Other is more a distinction between controlling the monster or "becoming" the monster. In this case, I just hope they avoid the whole "turn into a soulflayer" implication XI used since some craved that even though the plot implicitly told you why that was a bad thing.
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#99 Jul 28 2013 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
Seriha wrote:

It's kind of funny because I've seen some people pissed BRD isn't like its XI incarnation. Either way, speculation only goes so far here. My snipe on BLU in XIV hinges on how the classes have been established at the moment as mainly their default class with then a few of the job's abilities added on top. BLU's pretty much rooted in being a bunch of monster abilities, so a starting class will need to account for this in some manner unless SE wants to deviate from their established paradigm. If we're not going to pair it with RDM under the premise of "melee mage" then I would open myself to either Mime or Beastmaster. The first under the premise of imitation, though maybe your party members instead of mobs. Other is more a distinction between controlling the monster or "becoming" the monster. In this case, I just hope they avoid the whole "turn into a soulflayer" implication XI used since some craved that even though the plot implicitly told you why that was a bad thing.



I think most people that dislike how BRD plays now thought they could exploit it again for FFXIV for an easy endgame slot. BRD was a horribly boring job in FFXI, I'm glad they make BRD's actually do something now other than sit on their hands. Personally I think RDM and BLU are twins of each other in many ways. I could easily see RDM being the first hybrid caster to play on the frontlines instead of the backline. RDM will need AoE buffs like BRD otherwise it won't work. Considering how every buff is AoE anyways, I'm guessing this trend will continue. I can see RDM work like LNC using debuffs only with more magic and less ws. I hope they stick with the rapier swords though.

The BLU soulflayer story element was FFXI exclusive. I wouldn't worry about that.
#100 Jul 29 2013 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Seriha wrote:

It's kind of funny because I've seen some people pissed BRD isn't like its XI incarnation. Either way, speculation only goes so far here. My snipe on BLU in XIV hinges on how the classes have been established at the moment as mainly their default class with then a few of the job's abilities added on top. BLU's pretty much rooted in being a bunch of monster abilities, so a starting class will need to account for this in some manner unless SE wants to deviate from their established paradigm. If we're not going to pair it with RDM under the premise of "melee mage" then I would open myself to either Mime or Beastmaster. The first under the premise of imitation, though maybe your party members instead of mobs. Other is more a distinction between controlling the monster or "becoming" the monster. In this case, I just hope they avoid the whole "turn into a soulflayer" implication XI used since some craved that even though the plot implicitly told you why that was a bad thing.

I think most people that dislike how BRD plays now thought they could exploit it again for FFXIV for an easy endgame slot. BRD was a horribly boring job in FFXI, I'm glad they make BRD's actually do something now other than sit on their hands. Personally I think RDM and BLU are twins of each other in many ways. I could easily see RDM being the first hybrid caster to play on the frontlines instead of the backline. RDM will need AoE buffs like BRD otherwise it won't work. Considering how every buff is AoE anyways, I'm guessing this trend will continue. I can see RDM work like LNC using debuffs only with more magic and less ws. I hope they stick with the rapier swords though.

The BLU soulflayer story element was FFXI exclusive. I wouldn't worry about that.

I personally want to see RDM and BLU come from the same class. I want them both to combine TP and MP in order to play their respective roles. I would make RDM a DPS and BLU a healer. With iconic abilities such as Mighty Guard and White Wind, I could definitely see BLU fulfilling that role. That probably won't happen, but I like how the roles would balance each other.
#101 Jul 29 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
FrozenSherbet wrote:


I personally want to see RDM and BLU come from the same class. I want them both to combine TP and MP in order to play their respective roles. I would make RDM a DPS and BLU a healer. With iconic abilities such as Mighty Guard and White Wind, I could definitely see BLU fulfilling that role. That probably won't happen, but I like how the roles would balance each other.


I'm on the fence with this. On one hand, it's redundant to have RDM have the same cures and nukes as BLM and WHM so it does make more sense to have the BLU heal using new spells. On the other hand, all the jobs in the game seem generic to me. They all seem to have a DoT and even CJN is encourages to do some form of damage. Personally if I had to choose based on Yoshi's plans for jobs, I'd use BLU and RDM as front line buffers/DoT jobs and leave Nin/THF for front line debuffers/Dot classes.
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