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#52 Jul 15 2013 at 10:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,232 posts
Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Compared to the actual game systems, mechanics, client/server interaction, etc, "end game" IS unimportant for launch. They're not going to push back a hard release date if it's not all finished, in fact, "end game" is going to he added as the game goes along. The idea that the game is going to be complete with all content available at release is just not true. So I'm not sure what part of my logic is all that mind blowing.


Edited, Jul 15th 2013 1:46am by KarlHungis


End Game IS Uninportant on Release ? Smiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laugh


Read the bolded part... it was in comparison to other aspects. I think endgame is very important, but I tend to agree that it's not as important as the other issues mentioned. And for all non-legacy players, having all endgame content at launch isn't crucial, since they don't walk into the game at 50.

From a legacy standpoint, having some endgame in is important, but as a poster above me said, if legacies were willing to pay for the game when it was incomplete, I think they'll be ok with not having every ounce of endgame content in at launch. As long as there is something to wet their whistle (which it has already been stated there will be), that should be good enough for them.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:16am by BartelX


End game content is the most important feature in an MMO in 2013, next to the combat system which is 90% of what you will be involved doing in an MMO, nobody cares about chocobo racing or housing, not as much as people care about End game content, nobody will stop playing if this game does not has chocobo racing, housing, but people will drop this game like a rock or any other game, if End game Content is subpar, why do you think Swotor Failed ? It did everything else right... But not end game... I really do not understand this notion that some posters have, that since this is a Final Fantasy titled game, it's immune to certain faults other games have failed for, yet this game FAILED already... Legacy players are waiting for this game to deliver, they have stuck around for this moment, if the game does not delivers do you really think 100% of them are going to stick around 6 more months or over a year for the game to deliver ? This is it for this game, is either go big or go home, they already played their "We are sorry we will fix this game" card....

There where around 50-75K legacy players, let's say for arguments sake there where 100K, this game has had over 1 million beta keys handed out, now we do know that that number is inflated, but let's say there are 1 million individual players, playing right now, do you honestly think that out of a million players, a million players, will be as forgiving as legacy players ?


So, by your logic 5% - 10% of the beta applicants are legacy players. And making that small percentage upset will ruin the game. But not making the other 90% - 95% happy won't? Not everybody is awesome like you and races to end game Ostia. There needs to be plenty of other stuff to do.

Since nobody on this forum has even played 2.0 endgame content, I would just say wait and see.
#53 Jul 15 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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259 posts
Its a fallacy to think that because legacy players paid for 1.0, they are going to accept incomplete ARR. Legacy players paid for 1.0 because they believed in the vision of Yoshi and SE's promises that the game is going to be fixed. They paid because they were told their progress will carry over and you will get perks in ARR.

If you think that all legacy players are going to be ok with an incomplete game once again and will happily pay for more promises and expectations, you are nuts. The time to deliver is now. The legacy servers will be filled with people who have already done Ifrit/Garuda prime and are looking for the next bit of content. Telling them that its not going to be there for a few months really is unacceptable.
#54 Jul 15 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
Ostia wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Compared to the actual game systems, mechanics, client/server interaction, etc, "end game" IS unimportant for launch. They're not going to push back a hard release date if it's not all finished, in fact, "end game" is going to he added as the game goes along. The idea that the game is going to be complete with all content available at release is just not true. So I'm not sure what part of my logic is all that mind blowing.


End game content is the most important feature in an MMO in 2013, next to the combat system which is 90% of what you will be involved doing in an MMO, nobody cares about chocobo racing or housing, not as much as people care about End game content, nobody will stop playing if this game does not has chocobo racing, housing, but people will drop this game like a rock or any other game, if End game Content is subpar, why do you think Swotor Failed ? It did everything else right... But not end game... I really do not understand this notion that some posters have, that since this is a Final Fantasy titled game, it's immune to certain faults other games have failed for, yet this game FAILED already... Legacy players are waiting for this game to deliver, they have stuck around for this moment, if the game does not delivers do you really think 100% of them are going to stick around 6 more months or over a year for the game to deliver ? This is it for this game, is either go big or go home, they already played their "We are sorry we will fix this game" card....

There where around 50-75K legacy players, let's say for arguments sake there where 100K, this game has had over 1 million beta keys handed out, now we do know that that number is inflated, but let's say there are 1 million individual players, playing right now, do you honestly think that out of a million players, a million players, will be as forgiving as legacy players ?


First, please reread the bolded part again. How does chocobo racing or housing have anything to do with mechanics, client/server interactions, or game systems? I'm saying that the base systems are more important than the finished systems. If something in the base is broken, it really doesn't matter how polished you make your endgame... it has to work first.

Second, I LOVE how you mention swtor failing because of endgame content lacking. I made that exact same argument about a month ago (along with ridiculous lag, a plethora of bugs, and unbalanced pvp) as the main reasons swtor failed and you laughed at me, claiming it was the combat system that was by FAR the biggest issue. Also, please note that on launch swtor had an ok amount of endgame content (two decent raids, a bunch of flashpoints), the problem is that they have only released new content once every 6 months or so, which is why it is such a detrimental aspect to the game.

Third, I never said 6 months or a year for endgame implementation. If that is the case, you are absolutely correct and many of them will leave (just like in swtor). If they have some at launch to tide them over until they release more a month or two later, that's what I'm talking about (and actually mentioned in my post).

Fourth, like I said, new players aren't starting at 50. They have to level up to get there. Certainly some will do it within a week or two, but most will take a bit longer, try out multiple classes, try out crafting, and by the time they get there, they will have the content that's there at launch, and most likely be pretty close to releasing more (according to the timeline Yoshi-P has already set forth). So, I don't really see it as an issue.
#55 Jul 15 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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259 posts
SWTOR has had updates far far far more frequently than just once every 6 months.
#56 Jul 15 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
Ostia,

Now I know there was 1mil keys handed out and I'm darn sure there probably were not that many online. However I do know that I only hear good things from people I have been playing in beta with. I've not heard one negative comment unless its from you... I know myself that a game can't continue on for years without a good endgame aspect but wow man... You do know there are some others who could actually care less about EG at all and are only in it for the smaller things such as housing and choco stuff... So my question to you really is why do you constantly bash/put others wants for this game down in the dirt? Or are you only caring about Ostia?
#57 Jul 15 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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5,745 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
svlyons wrote:
I'm curious. What kind of "end game" content did FFXI have at launch? Was it basically just Serktet/Simurgh/Roc until Zilart was released?

Irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant. But if you don't want to discuss things, just say you don't want to discuss things. Or just ignore my post altogether. Responding with a dismissive tone is completely unnecessary.
#58 Jul 15 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Default
Ostia,

Now I know there was 1mil keys handed out and I'm darn sure there probably were not that many online. However I do know that I only hear good things from people I have been playing in beta with. I've not heard one negative comment unless its from you... I know myself that a game can't continue on for years without a good endgame aspect but wow man... You do know there are some others who could actually care less about EG at all and are only in it for the smaller things such as housing and choco stuff... So my question to you really is why do you constantly bash/put others wants for this game down in the dirt? Or are you only caring about Ostia?
#59 Jul 15 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
Arjuncorpse wrote:
SWTOR has had updates far far far more frequently than just once every 6 months.


Sorry, I should have clarified, I was talking endgame content, as in new operations. We're approaching the 2 year mark of swtor and there are what, 5 operations now? It started at 2, so I'd say the once every 6 months is pretty accurate. And no, I do not consider adding a nightmare mode as new content. Don't get me wrong... I actually really loved swtor for quite a while. I liked the combat, I loved the story, I thought the progression 1-50 was nice, and I liked most of the classes. The things I mentioned (and specifically lack of endgame diversity) are what made me and most of my guild eventually quit. Once you beat Hardmode Kephess a month after it's launched, what is there to do for the next 5 months until a new raid is introduced? It was basically, put the op on farm mode, pvp, or level alts.
#60 Jul 15 2013 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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660 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
svlyons wrote:
I'm curious. What kind of "end game" content did FFXI have at launch? Was it basically just Serktet/Simurgh/Roc until Zilart was released?


Irrelevant. Besides the fact that FFXI released without any max level players, it also took a LONG time for players to reach max level. Plenty of development time there.

It would also be helpful if, in general, people (not just you) would please stop using FFXI as a point of reference for development of a new MMO. FFXI was released in 2002. This is 2013, over a decade later. There are tens of millions more MMO players now than there were then. The standards are different, the market is different, the players are different. FFXI is not a good reference point for the release of a new game (or the re-release in this case).

Quote:
Not to be snarky, but Legacy players are getting a big discount, and they have already proven that they'll pay money for an incomplete game on the promise of future improvement. It would be pretty strange for Legacy players to quit at game's release because the content they want is a month or two from being released.


I agree it'd be strange for them to quit at release after what they've already done. I also think that SE has a vested interest in keeping these players around, which will not happen if they're bored.


To be fair, FFXI had a ton of time sinks designed to slow player progression and levelling took a lot longer due to the difficulty and paltry exp mobs gave. The game didnt explain sh*t to you. A player would have to discover literally everything on their own, which takes more time. Hell even the run speed was a time sink when you think about the size of the zones and the lack of transportation options before level 20.

FFXI had a lot of terrible game design elements that were often developed to frustrate the player.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 1:09pm by reptiletim
#61 Jul 15 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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259 posts
I actually don't think 5 endgame raids in 2 years is slow at all. SWTOR's biggest endgame problem was, at least to start with, the raids were way too easy and short. Within a couple weeks of entering EV or KP, you could clear them start to finish in less than 2 hours each. And the itemization wasn't great. That's the biggest thing I hope ARR gets right.

I think its unrealistic to develop well thought out raids at a rate quicker than 5 every 2 years. But, those raid need to be worth it. You need bosses that take some time to figure out mechanics and patterns and just plain old experience to beat. You need to have interesting trash mobs between bosses. Interesting in the sense, they can drop cool stuff like crafting ingredients and such. I'm sure the super dedicated and hardcore guilds will still beat them fairly quickly, but for guilds that raid maybe once a week? It should take them a couple months to clear the raid and another couple months to master it and gear up from it. I am encouraged when I hear Yoshida says endgame encounters are designed to outright kill players and that places like Bahamut's Labyrinth take a long time to traverse. I hope that is true.
#62 Jul 15 2013 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
Arjuncorpse wrote:
I actually don't think 5 endgame raids in 2 years is slow at all. SWTOR's biggest endgame problem was, at least to start with, the raids were way too easy and short. Within a couple weeks of entering EV or KP, you could clear them start to finish in less than 2 hours each. And the itemization wasn't great. That's the biggest thing I hope ARR gets right.

I think its unrealistic to develop well thought out raids at a rate quicker than 5 every 2 years. But, those raid need to be worth it. You need bosses that take some time to figure out mechanics and patterns and just plain old experience to beat. You need to have interesting trash mobs between bosses. Interesting in the sense, they can drop cool stuff like crafting ingredients and such. I'm sure the super dedicated and hardcore guilds will still beat them fairly quickly, but for guilds that raid maybe once a week? It should take them a couple months to clear the raid and another couple months to master it and gear up from it. I am encouraged when I hear Yoshida says endgame encounters are designed to outright kill players and that places like Bahamut's Labyrinth take a long time to traverse. I hope that is true.


I see what you're saying and agree with you in terms of the length of ops. Being able to full clear the op in 2 hours really kills the depth of endgame. I still think that raids should come more often than one per 6 months. Rift had them coming out one every couple months. WoW was similar, or would be adding entire new wings onto raids. Lotro introduces new instances 4-5 times a year. Two a year seems like a slow schedule to me, but I suppose if they are pretty elaborate and require saving progress in order to beat over the course of several sessions, I'd be fine with that.
#63 Jul 15 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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153 posts
Mmoderator wrote:
Ostia,

Now I know there was 1mil keys handed out and I'm darn sure there probably were not that many online. However I do know that I only hear good things from people I have been playing in beta with. I've not heard one negative comment unless its from you... I know myself that a game can't continue on for years without a good endgame aspect but wow man... You do know there are some others who could actually care less about EG at all and are only in it for the smaller things such as housing and choco stuff... So my question to you really is why do you constantly bash/put others wants for this game down in the dirt? Or are you only caring about Ostia?



We're talking about the same guy who was publicly scolded in it's own thread by a mod here... that should help draw some conclusions.
#64 Jul 15 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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3,737 posts
svlyons wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
svlyons wrote:
I'm curious. What kind of "end game" content did FFXI have at launch? Was it basically just Serktet/Simurgh/Roc until Zilart was released?

Irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant. But if you don't want to discuss things, just say you don't want to discuss things. Or just ignore my post altogether. Responding with a dismissive tone is completely unnecessary.


I mean, you COULD have read the rest of my reply to you... because everything after that first word was actually the important part. But if you don't want to discuss things, just say you don't want to discuss things.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#65 Jul 15 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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259 posts
BartelX wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
I actually don't think 5 endgame raids in 2 years is slow at all. SWTOR's biggest endgame problem was, at least to start with, the raids were way too easy and short. Within a couple weeks of entering EV or KP, you could clear them start to finish in less than 2 hours each. And the itemization wasn't great. That's the biggest thing I hope ARR gets right.

I think its unrealistic to develop well thought out raids at a rate quicker than 5 every 2 years. But, those raid need to be worth it. You need bosses that take some time to figure out mechanics and patterns and just plain old experience to beat. You need to have interesting trash mobs between bosses. Interesting in the sense, they can drop cool stuff like crafting ingredients and such. I'm sure the super dedicated and hardcore guilds will still beat them fairly quickly, but for guilds that raid maybe once a week? It should take them a couple months to clear the raid and another couple months to master it and gear up from it. I am encouraged when I hear Yoshida says endgame encounters are designed to outright kill players and that places like Bahamut's Labyrinth take a long time to traverse. I hope that is true.


I see what you're saying and agree with you in terms of the length of ops. Being able to full clear the op in 2 hours really kills the depth of endgame. I still think that raids should come more often than one per 6 months. Rift had them coming out one every couple months. WoW was similar, or would be adding entire new wings onto raids. Lotro introduces new instances 4-5 times a year. Two a year seems like a slow schedule to me, but I suppose if they are pretty elaborate and require saving progress in order to beat over the course of several sessions, I'd be fine with that.


I'm hoping they'll add more than just raids to endgame. More primal fights, high level FATES, level capped dungeons sprinkled in between new raids can keep the interest going. And personally, I'm hoping for some non combat related endgame features too. They have mentioned that you can build towers and stuff for your houses. Would be cool if they were really involved and time consuming crafts. Like build a set of items a day and then have to wait for a cooldown to build again. Plus, hopefully the materia system is robust enough, where it is encouraged to spiritbond many items at lv50. Endgame is very important and expectations for endgame are obviously going to be high when the guy behind the game says Lv1-50 is basically a tutorial, the real game starts at lv50.
#66 Jul 15 2013 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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5,745 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
I mean, you COULD have read the rest of my reply to you... because everything after that first word was actually the important part. But if you don't want to discuss things, just say you don't want to discuss things.

I did read it. I just didn't feel like quoting it. And the rest of that post didn't provide any of the information I was looking for, and sounded just as dismissive and condescending.
#67 Jul 15 2013 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
Arjuncorpse wrote:
I'm hoping they'll add more than just raids to endgame. More primal fights, high level FATES, level capped dungeons sprinkled in between new raids can keep the interest going. And personally, I'm hoping for some non combat related endgame features too. They have mentioned that you can build towers and stuff for your houses. Would be cool if they were really involved and time consuming crafts. Like build a set of items a day and then have to wait for a cooldown to build again. Plus, hopefully the materia system is robust enough, where it is encouraged to spiritbond many items at lv50. Endgame is very important and expectations for endgame are obviously going to be high when the guy behind the game says Lv1-50 is basically a tutorial, the real game starts at lv50.


I agree with you. I want some endgame crafting and gathering activities, and more robust things to do at 50 than just raids. I think (hope) we'll get that.
#68 Jul 15 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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972 posts
Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Compared to the actual game systems, mechanics, client/server interaction, etc, "end game" IS unimportant for launch. They're not going to push back a hard release date if it's not all finished, in fact, "end game" is going to he added as the game goes along. The idea that the game is going to be complete with all content available at release is just not true. So I'm not sure what part of my logic is all that mind blowing.


Edited, Jul 15th 2013 1:46am by KarlHungis


End Game IS Uninportant on Release ? Smiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laugh


Read the bolded part... it was in comparison to other aspects. I think endgame is very important, but I tend to agree that it's not as important as the other issues mentioned. And for all non-legacy players, having all endgame content at launch isn't crucial, since they don't walk into the game at 50.

From a legacy standpoint, having some endgame in is important, but as a poster above me said, if legacies were willing to pay for the game when it was incomplete, I think they'll be ok with not having every ounce of endgame content in at launch. As long as there is something to wet their whistle (which it has already been stated there will be), that should be good enough for them.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:16am by BartelX


End game content is the most important feature in an MMO in 2013, next to the combat system which is 90% of what you will be involved doing in an MMO, nobody cares about chocobo racing or housing, not as much as people care about End game content, nobody will stop playing if this game does not has chocobo racing, housing, but people will drop this game like a rock or any other game, if End game Content is subpar, why do you think Swotor Failed ? It did everything else right... But not end game... I really do not understand this notion that some posters have, that since this is a Final Fantasy titled game, it's immune to certain faults other games have failed for, yet this game FAILED already... Legacy players are waiting for this game to deliver, they have stuck around for this moment, if the game does not delivers do you really think 100% of them are going to stick around 6 more months or over a year for the game to deliver ? This is it for this game, is either go big or go home, they already played their "We are sorry we will fix this game" card....

There where around 50-75K legacy players, let's say for arguments sake there where 100K, this game has had over 1 million beta keys handed out, now we do know that that number is inflated, but let's say there are 1 million individual players, playing right now, do you honestly think that out of a million players, a million players, will be as forgiving as legacy players ?

Endgame is very important. But there is plenty for people to do starting from scratch. How many dungeons did they say?15? How many jobs and classes? This isn't an alt game where you can focus on one class and ignore the rest, they have to level multiple class/jobs. That is going to take awhile to do. What is the best methods for making gil here? Crafting? Gathering? Guidleves?

ARR has two years of beta because of legacy in addition to the standard beta as most games have at launch. SE isn't dumb enough to make the same mistake as TOR or the second mistake twice. They know they want you legacy players to stick around. There will be endgame content like a mutha coming in patches and expansion during the first 6 months. I guarantee you.
#69 Jul 15 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
I wouldn't put it past any company to make stupid mistakes once or even more then once.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 2:57pm by Mopdaddy
#70 Jul 15 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
Suijin wrote:
Quote:

Okay, so after reading up the summary-so-far on 2ch, from what I gather it's:

August 1st - Character Creation Benchmark
August 8th - Producer Letter Live, in which they'll announce when the start date for Phase 4 is.

Hence, it will seem that Phase 4 will start sometime after that.


Credits to Stanislaw again for translating.

I personally think it will probably start around the 15th.. but who knows Smiley: smile


Could you provide the link for this translation? I'm certainly not willing to stumble around 2ch from work!

But really, thanks for providing the most relevant info I've seen thus far on the timing of Phase 4! Rate up for sure.
#71 Jul 15 2013 at 1:42 PM Rating: Default
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Compared to the actual game systems, mechanics, client/server interaction, etc, "end game" IS unimportant for launch. They're not going to push back a hard release date if it's not all finished, in fact, "end game" is going to he added as the game goes along. The idea that the game is going to be complete with all content available at release is just not true. So I'm not sure what part of my logic is all that mind blowing.


End game content is the most important feature in an MMO in 2013, next to the combat system which is 90% of what you will be involved doing in an MMO, nobody cares about chocobo racing or housing, not as much as people care about End game content, nobody will stop playing if this game does not has chocobo racing, housing, but people will drop this game like a rock or any other game, if End game Content is subpar, why do you think Swotor Failed ? It did everything else right... But not end game... I really do not understand this notion that some posters have, that since this is a Final Fantasy titled game, it's immune to certain faults other games have failed for, yet this game FAILED already... Legacy players are waiting for this game to deliver, they have stuck around for this moment, if the game does not delivers do you really think 100% of them are going to stick around 6 more months or over a year for the game to deliver ? This is it for this game, is either go big or go home, they already played their "We are sorry we will fix this game" card....

There where around 50-75K legacy players, let's say for arguments sake there where 100K, this game has had over 1 million beta keys handed out, now we do know that that number is inflated, but let's say there are 1 million individual players, playing right now, do you honestly think that out of a million players, a million players, will be as forgiving as legacy players ?


First, please reread the bolded part again. How does chocobo racing or housing have anything to do with mechanics, client/server interactions, or game systems? I'm saying that the base systems are more important than the finished systems. If something in the base is broken, it really doesn't matter how polished you make your endgame... it has to work first.

Second, I LOVE how you mention swtor failing because of endgame content lacking. I made that exact same argument about a month ago (along with ridiculous lag, a plethora of bugs, and unbalanced pvp) as the main reasons swtor failed and you laughed at me, claiming it was the combat system that was by FAR the biggest issue. Also, please note that on launch swtor had an ok amount of endgame content (two decent raids, a bunch of flashpoints), the problem is that they have only released new content once every 6 months or so, which is why it is such a detrimental aspect to the game.

Third, I never said 6 months or a year for endgame implementation. If that is the case, you are absolutely correct and many of them will leave (just like in swtor). If they have some at launch to tide them over until they release more a month or two later, that's what I'm talking about (and actually mentioned in my post).

Fourth, like I said, new players aren't starting at 50. They have to level up to get there. Certainly some will do it within a week or two, but most will take a bit longer, try out multiple classes, try out crafting, and by the time they get there, they will have the content that's there at launch, and most likely be pretty close to releasing more (according to the timeline Yoshi-P has already set forth). So, I don't really see it as an issue.


Housing and chocobo racing are game systems, just like Auction house is a game system etc etc.... Do i really need to spell this out to you ? We still have latency/client & sever issues, there is still lag when it comes to AOE abilities etc etc, we have spent 3 phases testing the same 20 levels of content, yet the remaining 40 levels of content, will literally go untested, unless they extend phase 4 or delay the game, that is more than 50% of content that will go untested by players, and players are the best testers, for they will think outside of the box on how to beat encounters, in ways that SE could never dream off.

As for Swotor, yes swotor failed because of lack of end game, the class unbalance issue came to front when there was the lack of content, when you have only 2 raids and dungeons to run at cap level, what else is there to do ? PVP, in that is when class unbalance cost them dearly, for now not only is your end game content lacking, but the only other content avaiable is basically unplayable... Seriously you should try playing some MMOS sometimes.

Right now leveling up is way to easy, there will be people hitting 50 within the first 24 hours, let alone a week, once they get there they will start spamming primal fights, collect gear and tackle the 2 raids, one which is incomplete, and the other will not have bahamut avaiable on release. So techincally both raids will be incomplete.... Shiva, Ramuh will not be at release, so that is 3 primals, 2 incomplete raids at release..... Totally a non issue.
#72 Jul 15 2013 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,310 posts
KarlHungis wrote:
The fact that it may be important to you doesn't mean it's an important feature over all, it means it's an important feature to you. Take a step back, take the emotional reaction out of it, and use your brain. No one said you can't care about it, but what I said, which is accurate, is that it's a minor feature at this point.


I assure you I am quite calm right now. You could sleep soundly while adrift on my emotional seas.

KarlHungis wrote:
Read the comments here and elsewhere. Most people really like the game even though we have no idea if the PvP will be any good at all. Even though it hasn't had one second of testing or even internal gameplay footage demonstrated so far. If PvP were considered a core feature of the game, it would have been in the game by now. That's not to say it won't eventually be awesome, but come on, if you can't admit what's completely obvious then you have a problem.


It's a valid point. Many people could enjoy FFXIV just fine without PvP. Maybe even a vast majority.

But consider this:

KarlHungis wrote:
So because maybe 5-10% of the player base will absolutely not play it for a month or two if they aren't able to get it working perfectly right away, it makes sense to push back the entire release so the other 90-95% of the player base can't play either? You don't see the slight flaw in that reasoning?


There's no flaw in this reasoning, and I'll explain why.

I would say 10% is cutting it a little low for PvP participation, but let's go with that number for now because it works in many similar features of the game. In fact, FFXIV is a collection of features that might only appeal to 10% of the population or so when you get right down to it.

Sure, everyone might dabble in a little crafting now and then, but how many people are going to play it hardcore enough to multi-meld materia on all manner of gear? Probably not even 10% are going to take it all the way, and even then, how many are going to pursue this from the beginning? Yet, if crafting weren't working, we'd allow the game an extra week or so of development if that's all it took, right? There are people with crafts at 50 already, and everyone relies on it.

Most people find Gathering rather mundane; a virtual simulation of repetitive field work. Maybe only 10% truly like this option and will pursue it to 50 with enthusiasm. Yet, we would not deny Gatherers a functioning system. We recognize materials gathering is the backbone of the economy, collecting ingredients not found through regular monster fighting, and keeping Crafters crafting. There are people with gathering at 50 already, so we'd give them an extra week.

Not everyone likes hardcore endgame. In a casual game like this, it seems anathema, and maybe only 10% will actually pursue it full force (if there's a million players, maybe even less than 10%). But we have a lot of former FFXI players and people from other hardcore MMO backgrounds, so we obviously have to keep them entertained even though the vast majority will be starting at level 1 and hardly pursuing endgame. But, since there are characters at 50 already, we'd give them an extra week.

Maybe not everyone likes quests, or storylines, or dungeons, or Guildleves, or grinding, but we'd wait a week for any of these because we recognize there are differing playstyles and while I might not like one thing, plenty of other people do.

So, what about PvP? Any modern MMO has PvP to some degree, in a mostly friendly PvE game. To skip this is half-assed, marks will be taken away by reviewers for not having it, and some players won't even bother picking up FFXIV in first place. With it so close to completion, why not spend an extra week on it if that's all it took? While other "10% features" require a level 50 mastery to be fully realized, PvP is available at a wide range of levels, and will probably be enjoyed by most new players far sooner than they'd level up to 50 in any class.

But if this doesn't do it for you, let me put it this way:

Crafters will benefit greatly since people will want different builds for PvP that differ from PvE, and Gatherers will benefit because Crafters a lot more supplies than if they were just gearing PvE builds. Hardcore endgame PvE players who don't care for PvP still benefit because those who enjoy playing PvP, and don't quit their subscription because it's there, will be funding the development team with actual subscription money while they play, which can only benefit endgame development far more than if they left to play something else. It may only be "10%" who like this, but it benefits the the playstyles of everyone who plays FFXIV. I'd say it's worth a week of extra development time.
#73 Jul 15 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Default
Mmoderator wrote:
Ostia,

Now I know there was 1mil keys handed out and I'm darn sure there probably were not that many online. However I do know that I only hear good things from people I have been playing in beta with. I've not heard one negative comment unless its from you... I know myself that a game can't continue on for years without a good endgame aspect but wow man... You do know there are some others who could actually care less about EG at all and are only in it for the smaller things such as housing and choco stuff... So my question to you really is why do you constantly bash/put others wants for this game down in the dirt? Or are you only caring about Ostia?


Really nobody says negative things besides me ? Huh... Funny! You must live in a Bubble Smiley: lol

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/48641-Let-s-draw-SEs-attention-to-this-problem-lack-of-responsiveness.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/56005-Requiring-dungeons-is-a-%2Areally%2A-bad-idea.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/81249-Feedback-Early-dungeons-are-barely-challenging

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/forums/341-Battle-System - Just look at all the complaints on the battle system alone Smiley: lol

Most MMO players care very little for chocobo racing and housing, and do care more for EG content. MMO Rpgs either succeed or fail because of content, people seemed to forget that yes 1.0 failed because of a huge number of issues, but lack of end game content was one of them also :)
#74 Jul 15 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
***
1,330 posts
Ostia wrote:
Mmoderator wrote:
Ostia,

Now I know there was 1mil keys handed out and I'm darn sure there probably were not that many online. However I do know that I only hear good things from people I have been playing in beta with. I've not heard one negative comment unless its from you... I know myself that a game can't continue on for years without a good endgame aspect but wow man... You do know there are some others who could actually care less about EG at all and are only in it for the smaller things such as housing and choco stuff... So my question to you really is why do you constantly bash/put others wants for this game down in the dirt? Or are you only caring about Ostia?


Really nobody says negative things besides me ? Huh... Funny! You must live in a Bubble Smiley: lol

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/48641-Let-s-draw-SEs-attention-to-this-problem-lack-of-responsiveness.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/56005-Requiring-dungeons-is-a-%2Areally%2A-bad-idea.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/81249-Feedback-Early-dungeons-are-barely-challenging

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/forums/341-Battle-System - Just look at all the complaints on the battle system alone Smiley: lol

Most MMO players care very little for chocobo racing and housing, and do care more for EG content. MMO Rpgs either succeed or fail because of content, people seemed to forget that yes 1.0 failed because of a huge number of issues, but lack of end game content was one of them also :)


Saying "lack of endgame content" is potentially misleading because it implies there wasn't a lack of other content. In other words, it'd be more appropriate on something like The Old Republic. FFXIV 1.0 suffered from lack of content on *everything* except tradeskills. Tradeskills was simply bizarre content, but having to figure out recipes kept people distracted for a bit. But running to Bluefog and Broken Water for leve turn-ins at level 10? SERIOUSLY? And let's not get started on having to find recipes like Clear Glass Lens with absolutely nothing to go on (except SCIENCE) until someone submitted it to yg.

#75 Jul 15 2013 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
Ostia wrote:
Housing and chocobo racing are game systems, just like Auction house is a game system etc etc.... Do i really need to spell this out to you ? We still have latency/client & sever issues, there is still lag when it comes to AOE abilities etc etc, we have spent 3 phases testing the same 20 levels of content, yet the remaining 40 levels of content, will literally go untested, unless they extend phase 4 or delay the game, that is more than 50% of content that will go untested by players, and players are the best testers, for they will think outside of the box on how to beat encounters, in ways that SE could never dream off.


I never even mentioned housing or chocobo racing, especially considering chocobo racing isn't even a thought being implemented yet. Also, I'm pretty sure game systems was to imply the foundations of the game at it's core, at least that's what I meant it as. And yeah, there still are some minor latency/client issues, which is why it's good that they are still testing more of the basic stuff. Please don't get condescending though, especially when you can't even use simple math to figure out that 20+40= 60, and the cap is 50. Not to mention dungeons, FATEs, leves, and behests went up into the 30's, so no, all the content didn't stop at 20, just the main storyline and quests did.

Other than that, I actually agree with you that I wish they had time to test the higher content, even if they had made it a legacy-only type situation (would have been a nice perk for those with legacy status). I agree that players make the best beta testers and that I do wish there was more time to get some of that content tested.

Ostia wrote:
As for Swotor, yes swotor failed because of lack of end game, the class unbalance issue came to front when there was the lack of content, when you have only 2 raids and dungeons to run at cap level, what else is there to do ? PVP, in that is when class unbalance cost them dearly, for now not only is your end game content lacking, but the only other content avaiable is basically unplayable... Seriously you should try playing some MMOS sometimes.


As you already know, I have plenty of mmo experience. I was just calling you on completely changing your opinion on swtor failing, because you tried to mock me for saying it was related to endgame while claiming it was the combat that caused it, which, if you've played swtor you'll realize is rather silly since the combat is quite fun and like a jazzed up version of WoW combat. Now if you had mentioned the combat LAG, and how abilities sometimes don't even activate yet still waste your GCD, I'd have agreed with you, as that is one of the more annoying bugs (which I've mentioned as being one of the reasons swtor is failing).

Ostia wrote:
Right now leveling up is way to easy, there will be people hitting 50 within the first 24 hours, let alone a week, once they get there they will start spamming primal fights, collect gear and tackle the 2 raids, one which is incomplete, and the other will not have bahamut avaiable on release. So techincally both raids will be incomplete.... Shiva, Ramuh will not be at release, so that is 3 primals, 2 incomplete raids at release..... Totally a non issue.


This is not the majority of players. This is the very small minority of hardcore players, who, regardless of how fast you implement endgame content, will burn through it. And fyi, it will be 3 primals, 2 raids, 4 beastmen camps with endgame FATEs, AF quests, and relic quests (yeah, yeah, legacy this and that, I'm talking specifically from your new player analogy), with the promise of more endgame content coming with the first patch. If that's not enough to tide over the hardcore, I guess they'll just have to wait or find a different game.
#76 Jul 15 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
**
660 posts
Wasnt it already announced in one of the letters from the producer that shortly after release they will be adding the Crystal Tower and Bahamut's Labarynth as end-game content? And that there is a planned expansion pack on the horizon?
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