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#127 Jul 15 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
CoP was nerfed 3 time and had all of 30% of the player base completed it before the cap was removed. You want to say the difficulty wasn't a factor in that, go ahead and speculate - but that's not the type of statistic you want to see on an expansion after several years.

Where did these numbers come from exactly? Just curious...

Probably the Vana'diel census.

2008 expansion mission progress data: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/08/11mission.html

2009 expansion mission progress data: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/09/9.html

2011 expansion mission progress data: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/10/6.html
(Notice how this survey specifically mentions the effect of removing the level cap on missions)

CoP was released in 2004.
#128 Jul 15 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Where did these numbers come from exactly? Just curious...


Memory of one of the Vanadiel Censuses. I was too lazy to look up which one. Looks like the 8th.

Look at the rise in participation when Level Sync and Level Cap removal were introduced. From under 30% to over 50% in two years time because of those introductions.

Take it with a grain of salt. FFXI was a punishing game to begin with so many settled with not getting the content done and just hanging out with friends. And there were plenty of other time sinks. Still, 30% of people completing what was at the time five plus year old content still seems low. They likely lost people on that.
#129 Jul 15 2013 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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Been reading this thread. Going to have to side with Hyrist.

The opposite arguement is saying that we should prepare players now, at Lv 20 for endgame content because of the worry that further content will not be challenging enough. (Complete speculation)

Lv20 isn't even half way up to level cap. We haven't even seen future dungeons that more towards the later 30s and 40s I expect endgame concepts to be introduced.

All I'm saying is, I think the current gated content is fine when you consider it is holding essential features. There is still 30 more levels after that to see the ramp up to end game difficulty, whatever that may be.
#130REDACTED, Posted: Jul 15 2013 at 7:42 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The difference between level 20 content and level 30 content is none, they are as easy, level 30 guildhest is as easy as level 15 guildhest, level 30 dungeons are as easy as level 15-23 dungeons, level 30 is 5 levels past the midpoint of the game.
#131 Jul 15 2013 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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The data listed in the census isn't really a fair and accurate measure. The numbers are not a running total of completion, but a yearly comparison of how many people accepted which missions in comparison to the previous year. The only real notable here is that in the 10th census, half of all players who started CoP had finished. That number goes up substantially when you consider the number of players who started CoP and quit XI, the number of mules and alt characters with no intention of completing the missions and the number of RMT with no intention of completing the missions(which I imagine to be pretty significant).

The Vana'diel Collection was released in the summer of '05 and it bundled FFXI RotZ and CoP. Given that they were the same price, it's probably fair to say that almost everyone who purchased FFXI from that point on had the expansion. The only requirement to be considered in that census was registering the game and entering Delkfutt's Tower for the cutscene to begin the first mission. Way too many characters who started the missions with no intention of finishing them to read too much into the census number being a result of difficulty.




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#132 Jul 15 2013 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:

The difference between level 20 content and level 30 content is none,

Bullsh*t. Calling it loud and clear. Once again, Ostia, your blatant disregard for detail has you crossing the line between negative opinion and spreading misinformation.

Each individual guildhest differs for one another, so that's too long of a list for me to disseminate here.

We have no reference for Trials as Ifrit is the only impression, and that is level 20. So your argument there is baseless.

As far as dungeons, nothing previous to Manor can account for an Instant Kill moves during boss fights. Manor has Lady's Candle (or some such similar name) which will kill you and anyone in range if you let it detonate.

Same situation between manor and Copperbell. If you've got a full party of strong DPS, you can out-speed kill the Boss before the adds become a problem. Conversely, the Adds give Lady Amaranthine a high-potency Stoneskin effect which they will refresh if you break through it early with a limit break. Copperbell is also the first dungeon to introduce Monster that have to be weakened by using objectives.


Hatali, just one step above Copperbell, you are introduced to field damage via Wyrm that can easily wipe your group if you don't get the eff out of the water. You also differ in add objectives between 'defend target point' to 'eliminate enemies before they reach destination'. The latter comes with an additional attack effect and additional adds as consequence.

Step beyond that, you get landmines, terrain effects (the slime on the ground.) As well as your first Dungeon objective for attacking an individual body part on a monster.

Back to Manor, the Void Lamps, additional multi-target switch objective on top of instant kill boss spawn, on top of peel objective. This time the adds can coordinate with the boss to freeze a larger area with Terror as well. Also - patrolling mobs in the dungeon itself. ALSO - secondary hate targeting.

Moving on to Longstop, first introduction of NPCs to defend, additionally, first interrupted mini-boss fight. Additionally, first introduction to boss healing mechanics. It also has a different formula for targeting than simply 'secondary hate' as it seems to target people at different stages on the hate list at a currently undetermined pattern.

So yeah, level 20 dungeon, defiantly different than level 30 dungeon. The difference is in the details. What are you doing, what are you supposed to be learning? And yes, the dungeons, particularly the bosses more than the dungeons themselves, get more difficult as you go on.

But it is gradual. If you're already someone who has endgame raiding experience, all this stuff is water under the bridge to you. If you're new to MMOs or your MMO experience is limited, then these elements are significant learning points to you.



Ifrit level 20 is the equivalent of Three Kingdoms BCNM in FFXI in terms of progression. Back when that BCNM fight was released it had a cap of 25 in which certain jobs could SOLO the fight given proper preparation, let alone be duoed. My first memories of the BCNM involved me and two others going in with me at only level 23 on my Red Mage. Our 'Tank' died briefly after the seeker did and I was forced to chainspell in order for us to beat the fight. However, we did beat it. By your own standards, we shouldn't have. OBVIOUSLY Vanilla FFXI was too easy. Smiley: rolleyes


Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:47pm by Hyrist
#133 Jul 16 2013 at 12:48 AM Rating: Default
Hyrist wrote:
Ostia wrote:

The difference between level 20 content and level 30 content is none,

Bullsh*t. Calling it loud and clear. Once again, Ostia, your blatant disregard for detail has you crossing the line between negative opinion and spreading misinformation.

Each individual guildhest differs for one another, so that's too long of a list for me to disseminate here.

We have no reference for Trials as Ifrit is the only impression, and that is level 20. So your argument there is baseless.

As far as dungeons, nothing previous to Manor can account for an Instant Kill moves during boss fights. Manor has Lady's Candle (or some such similar name) which will kill you and anyone in range if you let it detonate.

Same situation between manor and Copperbell. If you've got a full party of strong DPS, you can out-speed kill the Boss before the adds become a problem. Conversely, the Adds give Lady Amaranthine a high-potency Stoneskin effect which they will refresh if you break through it early with a limit break. Copperbell is also the first dungeon to introduce Monster that have to be weakened by using objectives.


Hatali, just one step above Copperbell, you are introduced to field damage via Wyrm that can easily wipe your group if you don't get the eff out of the water. You also differ in add objectives between 'defend target point' to 'eliminate enemies before they reach destination'. The latter comes with an additional attack effect and additional adds as consequence.

Step beyond that, you get landmines, terrain effects (the slime on the ground.) As well as your first Dungeon objective for attacking an individual body part on a monster.

Back to Manor, the Void Lamps, additional multi-target switch objective on top of instant kill boss spawn, on top of peel objective. This time the adds can coordinate with the boss to freeze a larger area with Terror as well. Also - patrolling mobs in the dungeon itself. ALSO - secondary hate targeting.

Moving on to Longstop, first introduction of NPCs to defend, additionally, first interrupted mini-boss fight. Additionally, first introduction to boss healing mechanics. It also has a different formula for targeting than simply 'secondary hate' as it seems to target people at different stages on the hate list at a currently undetermined pattern.

So yeah, level 20 dungeon, defiantly different than level 30 dungeon. The difference is in the details. What are you doing, what are you supposed to be learning? And yes, the dungeons, particularly the bosses more than the dungeons themselves, get more difficult as you go on.

But it is gradual. If you're already someone who has endgame raiding experience, all this stuff is water under the bridge to you. If you're new to MMOs or your MMO experience is limited, then these elements are significant learning points to you.



Ifrit level 20 is the equivalent of Three Kingdoms BCNM in FFXI in terms of progression. Back when that BCNM fight was released it had a cap of 25 in which certain jobs could SOLO the fight given proper preparation, let alone be duoed. My first memories of the BCNM involved me and two others going in with me at only level 23 on my Red Mage. Our 'Tank' died briefly after the seeker did and I was forced to chainspell in order for us to beat the fight. However, we did beat it. By your own standards, we shouldn't have. OBVIOUSLY Vanilla FFXI was too easy. Smiley: rolleyes


Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:47pm by Hyrist


You do know you are quoting me out of context right ? The person i was answering and me where arguing about content difficulty, and i said that the difference between level 20 & 30 content where none, speaking of the difficulty... But i am sure you knew this... You just gotta try and get one in... since i owned you pretty bad last time we argued Mr. Pugilist are scalable damage dealers Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

Oh that was a good one Hyrist! Oh and also copper bell mines slime boss has a one shot attack in bombs... so your argument about mannor being the first dungeon that has a one shot kill ability is wrong... Lmao! So not only do you miss quote me on purpose.. But you also get your argument wrong ? DAMM! Smiley: lol Also... Hatali is not the first dungeon or instance where you experience "GTFO OF THE FIRE" that would be IFRIT :) Jesus! Can you get something right if you are gonna argue ?
#134 Jul 16 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Once again, misinformation, you need to cite your sources and drop the insults or you need to learn not to post before you do your research.

Puglist's primary damage scaling is based on Greased Lightning stacks and maintaining them. Each stack of Greased lightning adds + 7% Dmg & 5% Auto attack speed. Three stacks of Greesed lightning is +21% Damage and 15% Auto attack speed, up constantly. Stacking with other damage buffs. Thus, Puglist Damage is scaling incrementally, compared to Dragoon, which is primarily buff-and-burst style.

It's a similar concept to Astral Fire without the additional resource consumption. Your goal as Puglist is to get to 3 Stacks of Greased Lighting as fast as possible and continue it. If you can't, you're behind in damage.


Also, you're the one misquoting here.

First thing I said -
Quote:
As far as dungeons
Ifrit is out of the question right there - (not to mention I said Ifrit is categorized as a Trial in Duty Finder and has no other comparison point.) let alone the fact that the Hatali Wyrm is 'mode' based, Ifirit's attacks are singular rotations. Ifrit's attacks are also interrupt-able, Wyrm's Damage is passive.

The mining bomb, I'll admit, I overlooked. onsidering all the other mechanics introduced there, because I forgot the mining bomb also can instakill, that's minor as hell. Again, look at the layering in Manor. Subtargeting, Patrols, Multiple Switches, Protective Adds (That don't inflict immune on their charge.) They're adding together, adding to the difficulty.

You completely missed the point of my post. Each of those things are matters you have to keep track of in the dungeons, adding to the difficulty. The introduction of new elements add into slow growth of difficulty. The difference between level 20 and 30 dungeons is easily illustrated by the continual introductions of differing and layering combat mechanics.

Then again, you're not the one I should be talking this over with, to be honest. You've already determined that everything is too easy to you. I'm just putting this conversation into the proper perspective. You want to say there's no difference, let that be your own words. They're not the impressions of myself nor my Free Company, nor should your opinion be considered fact.


Edited, Jul 16th 2013 8:57am by Hyrist
#135 Jul 16 2013 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
You do know you are quoting me out of context right ?

Smiley: lolSmiley: laughSmiley: lol
Pot, meet kettle.

Hyrist wrote:
Once again, misinformation, you need to cite your sources and drop the insults or you need to learn not to post before you do your research.

Puglist's primary damage scaling is based on Greased Lightning stacks and maintaining them. Each stack of Greased lightning adds + 7% Dmg & 5% Auto attack speed. Three stacks of Greesed lightning is +21% Damage and 15% Auto attack speed, up constantly. Stacking with other damage buffs. Thus, Puglist Damage is scaling incrementally, compared to Dragoon, which is primarily buff-and-burst style.

It's a similar concept to Astral Fire without the additional resource consumption. Your goal as Puglist is to get to 3 Stacks of Greased Lighting as fast as possible and continue it. If you can't, you're behind in damage.


Don't bother Hyrist, I had the exact same argument with him, and he's just too stuck in his ways to understand the concept. He thinks that DPS classes can only be burst or sustained damage, even though there are TONS of classes in games that do not fit either of those molds.

Edited, Jul 16th 2013 9:32am by BartelX
#136 Jul 16 2013 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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I just want to make sure that the convesation is balanced. A 'pro' player is going to generalize mechanics he or she feels is beneath them, and overlook every essential part from the perspective of a new player.

Also, combat mechanics are layered in, and, honestly - there's been parses done to prove the point of how essential Greased Lightning is. (Before GL, Puglist's DPS is below that of Archer, after 3 stacks, it's higher than Dragoons.) Now this comes with the possible reservation that the base potency of the moves are too low, but I'd want to parse myself with one of my FC's Monks first.

I've over a decade under my belt when it comes to MMOs just on my lonesome over multiple MMOs (Sticking primarily between Aion and XI.) Differnce being I was a casual player with a hardcore mindset. I love the number crunching, but in the end I feel as if play-style is the individual player's choice. So long as they try and are not offending their team, they can play how they want.

But when it comes to details, I'm meticulous. Mainly because I love stacking DoTs. Perhaps I'm sadistic, watching an enemy bleed out, awell. It's fun to be able to lay down damage that pays out in the long run.
#137 Jul 16 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
The highest selling Final Fantasy title of all time happens to be FFVII, the easiest game in the entire series.


To be completely fair here.. Final Fantasy (as a series) is known for its story, not its difficulty.

And their original mechanics and jobs.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 6:17pm by sandpark


Eh, not so much origonal mechanics. See, they began same as anyone else - turn based. ATB did not come out until later and they essentially have stuck with variations of the ATB since. That's not really original after the sixth or seventh time.

Final Fantasy is mostly known for its tropes and ability to tell a good story. 'Origonal Mechanics' has been well muted for many a year now.

I know they began they same. Original to me means original. Doesn't matter if they used different iterations of it forever. Unoriginal would be playing FF with Elder Scrolls combat gameplay. I'm not a huge Elder scrolls head like some people but they are basing the combat on the mmo one exactly like their offline titles.

I think ES combat is boring but it is built exactly like their offline titles. How well the combat retention plays in an mmo space remains to be seen. ARR sets the controller UI up just like Dark souls but adds 16 actions per bar. And their pc hotbar like WoW.



I have nothing against borrowing UI. If you are trying to bring tab targeting to a more real time feel. Imo there is no better game to draw inspiration from than the souls series because it does it best. Just showing that the ATB system regardless of how often used or how old is original.
#138 Jul 16 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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You mean as far as the use of ATB? Eh, hard to judge considering how niche of a game it is. I do like the Stamina system, but it because of how outright nasty the enemies can be, it's almost forcing you to value stamina above all other stats.

But I get your meaning. It's just a personal impression, and one I've seen that mirrors with others. Final Fantasy hasn't really felt like something that really emphasis original systems above storytelling. In the ranking I'd say that queues as a higher priority trait. But that's just a personal opinion.
#139 Jul 17 2013 at 5:44 AM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
I have nothing against borrowing UI. If you are trying to bring tab targeting to a more real time feel. Imo there is no better game to draw inspiration from than the souls series because it does it best. Just showing that the ATB system regardless of how often used or how old is original.

WoW will always be the standard for that reason. Not because they took it upon themselves to design and implement the best looking, feeling, most responsive, ect. MMO UI ever created, but because they made it fully customizable and said "Do it your damn self". It's perfect for those of us who have an opinion on how to make it better (and those of us who know we can Smiley: tongue)

The vid you linked looks a lot like TERA except with the ability to lock target. Regardless, it looks a lot more fun and engaging than what XIV is currently using. Mayhaps we'll get some info on combat changes coming before launch, but I'm not sure how it will work out to delay much longer.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#140 Jul 17 2013 at 6:31 AM Rating: Good
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Just thought I'd tack this on here really quick, since it came directly from Yoshi-P in his duty finder thesis.

Quote:
Therefore, players will be able to solo their way through level 1 to 15 as a battle class. From level 15 to 35, the players will "learn the basics of party play." After level 35, we expect some players to really start talking about the mechanics and strategies for boss battles.


So really, the first 35 levels are learning the basics and fundamentals of encounters. So to all those complaining about how easy dungeons still seem to be at higher levels, hopefully this will answer your concerns.

Edited, Jul 17th 2013 8:31am by BartelX
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#141 Jul 17 2013 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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Good, 40 is about where I draw the line for newbie tolerance. If you're doing a level 40 run and you don't know the most basics, it's time to put the breaks on advancement and revisit some dungeons to iron out your game. It's not to say that individual is a terrible person or is just plain 'bad' - everyone has their weak points. But it's nice that level sync allows you to revisit places that might put emphasis on a part of a higher level dungeon/trial you feel weak on.
#142 Jul 17 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
sandpark wrote:
I have nothing against borrowing UI. If you are trying to bring tab targeting to a more real time feel. Imo there is no better game to draw inspiration from than the souls series because it does it best. Just showing that the ATB system regardless of how often used or how old is original.

WoW will always be the standard for that reason. Not because they took it upon themselves to design and implement the best looking, feeling, most responsive, ect. MMO UI ever created, but because they made it fully customizable and said "Do it your damn self". It's perfect for those of us who have an opinion on how to make it better (and those of us who know we can Smiley: tongue)

The vid you linked looks a lot like TERA except with the ability to lock target. Regardless, it looks a lot more fun and engaging than what XIV is currently using. Mayhaps we'll get some info on combat changes coming before launch, but I'm not sure how it will work out to delay much longer.

Yeah I'm looking forward to how combat changes up to launch.

Now that I look how the resource bars are setup and the feel of the game. TERA does sort of seem like the Souls series. If you don't mind an rpg without being linnear, not much quest story, but some of the best combat and enemy design around for a single player rpg. You owe it to yourself to try Demon Souls(Central hub with linked zones) or Dark Souls(Open World). Players can invade your world and try to help or kill you. I have about 350 hours playing Dark Souls lol. It's not as hard as people say if you time your moves and don't get lazy.
#143 Jul 17 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
I'll just put this here because I don't want to create a new thread:

I joined a Copperbell party as a lancer. It was me, an archer and a conjurer.

We had 20 mins left and needed to beat the slime and the last gigas.

We went for it. No tank, just us three.

Since I've ran Copperbell as a GLD I knew what to do. I told them and the archer kited the slimes, and I took care of the bomb and spriggans.

We passed that pretty easily.

We died on some trash mobs, but made it to the gigas.

I told them I'd tank the gigas and for the archer to take care of the adds. Everything was going great when I saw there were too many adds and they were going after the CON. The gigas was down to litterally a sliver of health, the archer was barely alive...

I died! Then saw the screen go black...to a cutscene of the boss dying!

It was pretty epic. More importantly it was fun.

----

I think the level of difficulty is fine up to 20. Considering you have to pass these to progress, they can't be overly difficult. The game is teaching you things in order to prepare for endgame; things like communication, hate management, etc. I'd think the endgame, which none of us have seen, will be the (not surprisingly) hardest content.

Should there be a heroic mode for some of these dungeons....yeah I think so. But really I think the early dungeons are fine
.



Great post and I agree totally....
The game does fell like its holding your hand early on and I believe it is too teach.. Not everyone has played a mmo before or a FF game,,



Edited, Jul 17th 2013 7:57pm by Nashred
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#144 Jul 17 2013 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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Nashred wrote:
Kierk wrote:
I'll just put this here because I don't want to create a new thread:

I joined a Copperbell party as a lancer. It was me, an archer and a conjurer.

We had 20 mins left and needed to beat the slime and the last gigas.

We went for it. No tank, just us three.

Since I've ran Copperbell as a GLD I knew what to do. I told them and the archer kited the slimes, and I took care of the bomb and spriggans.

We passed that pretty easily.

We died on some trash mobs, but made it to the gigas.

I told them I'd tank the gigas and for the archer to take care of the adds. Everything was going great when I saw there were too many adds and they were going after the CON. The gigas was down to litterally a sliver of health, the archer was barely alive...

I died! Then saw the screen go black...to a cutscene of the boss dying!

It was pretty epic. More importantly it was fun.

----

I think the level of difficulty is fine up to 20. Considering you have to pass these to progress, they can't be overly difficult. The game is teaching you things in order to prepare for endgame; things like communication, hate management, etc. I'd think the endgame, which none of us have seen, will be the (not surprisingly) hardest content.

Should there be a heroic mode for some of these dungeons....yeah I think so. But really I think the early dungeons are fine
.



Great post and I agree totally....
The game does fell like its holding your hand early on and I believe it is too teach.. Not everyone has played a mmo before or a FF game,,



Edited, Jul 17th 2013 7:57pm by Nashred


Not everyone played an MMO when I first signed into EverQuest for the first time.

So embarrassing too. I was to a point where I was starting to group with my Shadow Knight and I hadn't purchased my pull ability yet (I know! The horror!!!!). Suffice to say after that first real encounter with other players I tucked my tail back home and purchased Pull. Couple days later I learned what it meant to be a tank. Peer pressure is the best teacher. There's something to be said for being thrown into the fire. Too Darwinian?

Don't get me wrong. I am enjoying the game and my CE reservation isn't going anywhere but inside my ps3/ps4 console. But there's something to be said for a quick smack upside the noggin from your peers. The genre can handle it. We're all still here complaining on one front or another, after all. And kids will be complaining on one front or another years from now.
#145 Jul 17 2013 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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ShindaUsagi wrote:


Not everyone played an MMO when I first signed into EverQuest for the first time.

So embarrassing too. I was to a point where I was starting to group with my Shadow Knight and I hadn't purchased my pull ability yet (I know! The horror!!!!). Suffice to say after that first real encounter with other players I tucked my tail back home and purchased Pull. Couple days later I learned what it meant to be a tank. Peer pressure is the best teacher. There's something to be said for being thrown into the fire. Too Darwinian?

Don't get me wrong. I am enjoying the game and my CE reservation isn't going anywhere but inside my ps3/ps4 console. But there's something to be said for a quick smack upside the noggin from your peers. The genre can handle it. We're all still here complaining on one front or another, after all. And kids will be complaining on one front or another years from now.


I said this in another post but (like you've posted) imagine playing an MMO for the first time. It can be very daunting. Especially knowing/realizing what you do, can impact the entire group.

And imagine your first parties. Being scolded, or being told or taught is common.

I remember playing THF in FFXI and doing it completely wrong. I got a scolding from a JP player who was annoyed that I was putting hate on the wrong player all of the time. It was a lot of ; ;. lol. I'm sure I contributed to the stereotype of a bad NA player.

However this gradual learning curve in FFXIV, which starts to get difficult around level 40 (which I suspected), allows for conversations like this to happen, without too much consequence and hopefully not too much alienation.
#147 Jul 17 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
Playing EQ as my first MMO taught me what I needed to do to play above average. If you didn't play your character well in that game you got nowhere. As a monk that had to pull in NToV back in the day it was probably the best learning ever. I kind of always wish people had to play games like FFXI and EQ before they moved onto other games. I think those people in the long run would be happy they did. I know I would be happy they did heh.


Edited, Jul 17th 2013 9:23pm by Mopdaddy
#148 Jul 17 2013 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
ShindaUsagi wrote:


Not everyone played an MMO when I first signed into EverQuest for the first time.

So embarrassing too. I was to a point where I was starting to group with my Shadow Knight and I hadn't purchased my pull ability yet (I know! The horror!!!!). Suffice to say after that first real encounter with other players I tucked my tail back home and purchased Pull. Couple days later I learned what it meant to be a tank. Peer pressure is the best teacher. There's something to be said for being thrown into the fire. Too Darwinian?

Don't get me wrong. I am enjoying the game and my CE reservation isn't going anywhere but inside my ps3/ps4 console. But there's something to be said for a quick smack upside the noggin from your peers. The genre can handle it. We're all still here complaining on one front or another, after all. And kids will be complaining on one front or another years from now.


I said this in another post but (like you've posted) imagine playing an MMO for the first time. It can be very daunting. Especially knowing/realizing what you do, can impact the entire group.

And imagine your first parties. Being scolded, or being told or taught is common.

I remember playing THF in FFXI and doing it completely wrong. I got a scolding from a JP player who was annoyed that I was putting hate on the wrong player all of the time. It was a lot of ; ;. lol. I'm sure I contributed to the stereotype of a bad NA player.

However this gradual learning curve in FFXIV, which starts to get difficult around level 40 (which I suspected), allows for conversations like this to happen, without too much consequence and hopefully not too much alienation.


I remember playing RDM as my first job on FFXI, without any care in the world. I was in a level 50 party and I got lectured on how to use debuffs and refresh/haste cycles, then I got told my gear was **** (which is was), and it kept going on and on.

Then I went to the Killing Ifrit Forums when it was still thriving to complain about the guy. Was a pretty bad idea, especially since he had his own account threw all my baggage in the open.

While I cleaned up my act, and laugh about it now, I doubt anyone would've developed a tolerance like mine. I'm totally fine with the game holding your hand at the beginning for newcomers. It's better for the newbies, and better for us experienced players when it comes to endgame content.
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