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Message from Yoshi-P on battle system adjustmentsFollow

#77 Jun 24 2013 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I didn't mean to imply there shouldn't be any content for the solo player or they shouldn't have their way of endgame progression. Just saying, the ultimate endgame content will have to be for groups. And as it is, solo players have content don't they? Crafting is solo. Spiritbonding/Melding materia can be done solo.


Yea, I'm totally with you here. I would just like to see more interesting and engaging content for level capped players that a soloer, duo or handful of friends on limited time can do. I mentioned a couple ideas that would allow for some battle oriented content that wouldn't require a huge group. Basically everyone should feel like they can continue to grow their character once they are at the level cap. A person who never sees an endgame dungeon should be able to have fun, upgrade gear, get rich and participate in events.

Instead of the doctor and the burger flipper, I'd like to see it more like a private practitioner and the surgeon in a hospital. Both have avenues to get the $80k car. But maybe the surgeon can buy two in the same time that it takes the more independent dude to get his first.

I know jack **** about doctors and how that stuff actually works, but I hope you get my drift :)
#78 Jun 24 2013 at 11:23 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:

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A big part of the MMO business model is to get players invested in the game and the relationships they make. That keeps players playing and paying, even content that they have already completed. It keeps players invested in the game even when they are waiting for new content. To do that, you need to promote group focused activities at endgame. If you allow everything to be accomplished solo, you are not promoting the longevity of the game which the genre is so reliant on. The people who are willing to invest long term into the game are left unfulfilled. And like it or not, those kind of players are way more appealing to the MMO developers than the player who can play very infrequently.

Again, there's nothing saying people won't make friends if they're like the second player.


Having friends isn't the same as being socially engaged in the game. I don't know why you think this is some kind of issue about casual players somehow being second class in the eyes of less casual players. I'm sure that S-E or any one else would love to have a casual player's 15 bucks a month as much or even more than they would like to have a more dedicated player's money. The issue is that they've found that over the long run they don't keep the casual player as easily and as constantly as they keep the dedicated player. Keep in mind when I say "dedicated player" I don't mean some one who plays more hours per week or is smarter or more skilled; I mean some one who is willing and able to plan their time around an MMO as opposed to playing an MMO around their existing schedule.

Quote:

When I played XI, sure I did game talk, but there were also a lot of personal conversations that went on in private. Some friends I've even made here and talk with over AIM. You don't need Leroy Jenkins scenarios to bond to others with, or raids, or even being in a huge guild. The assumption that longevity can't be achieved if solo options are viable is just that, an assumption.


Define "viable." No one is saying there shouldn't be solo content available. Every MMO worth its salt these days has solo content throughout the leveling curve and beyond. But if "viable" means "as rewarding as group content" then people aren't incentivized to push past the friction of doing that content, and if they're not doing that content they generally don't play the game as long. If you have data that shows otherwise, I'm sure that S-E would love to have it.

Now maybe you believe that's a Chicken and Egg situation and if some brave developer would just make this solo friendly end game utopia, they'd keep those players engaged and do just fine with it, but no one has managed to do it yet, and if you read Yoshi's comments he doesn't intend to be the first. And I would say, having just come from Guild Wars 2, that even developers who have committed to the "no pressure, no grind, solo all you like" mind set find themselves changing course quickly when they see their retention numbers after release. GW2 was almost universally praised, yet after the first few months the engagement level was dropping to an incredibly low level, so they reversed course and have been steadily playing up the role of large group play.

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Clapping your hands together and going, "Nope, can't be done!" under the pretext that one player is more important than another is a toxic perspective to be running with and part of what makes the strength of the genre its most glaring fault. I can sit here and say I'd rather not play with people like you and Karl because you're more keen on excluding potential players,


I'm keen on including everyone, but I'm not investing a hundred million dollars or more to make a AAA MMO. The people who are investing that kind of money want subscriptions, and they want them every month for years and years, and they believe that the way to do that is with social engagement via forced grouping to get the best carrots. Maybe they're wrong, but you're failing to consider that maybe they're right. Maybe they've actually studied this stuff and have some notion of the profile of customer that drives their business.

I'm inclined to believe Yoshi P, because as much as I have always been in favor of "casual friendly" gaming throughout the years, I've seen myself that when people are not engaged in some sort of group structure in an MMO, they tend to drift away. Even in games like UO where the rewards didn't require massive groups, if people didn't find a reason to be a part of a community within the game, they simply didn't last, because at the end of the day, and MMO tends to be repetitive, and has a lot of compromises to accommodate a large user base, so it can really measure up to a true single player game as a single player experience.

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but in the end you won't care because the lack of empathy is precisely why I'm disinterested in helping people such as yourself advance their own agendas and perpetuate the falsehood that MMOs aren't for everyone. These are evolving, expanding worlds. There's room. Stop being so concerned that someone you'll never play with might actually be competitive by doing what best suits their schedule.


You're imagining motivations that simply don't exist and then complaining about those phantom motivations.

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This isn't a new subject for me, and I fear I've seen it all. While things haven't quite devolved into "lern2play n00b" status, I've found it inevitably does when someone feels their precious snowflake status is being threatened by a dirty casual.


Confirmation bias. Before the conversation began you had already defined the motivation and arguments of any one who doesn't fall into line with you, so you see those motivations and arguments where they don't really exist. Which puts the rest of us in a bit of a pickle because we'd like to engage you in conversation, but aren't in a position to defend imaginary emotional or logical positions that we don't really hold.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 1:32am by KarlHungis
#79 Jun 25 2013 at 12:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Having friends isn't the same as being socially engaged in the game. I don't know why you think this is some kind of issue about casual players somehow being second class in the eyes of less casual players. I'm sure that S-E or any one else would love to have a casual player's 15 bucks a month as much or even more than they would like to have a more dedicated player's money. The issue is that they've found that over the long run they don't keep the casual player as easily and as constantly as they keep the dedicated player. Keep in mind when I say "dedicated player" I don't mean some one who plays more hours per week or is smarter or more skilled; I mean some one who is willing and able to plan their time around an MMO as opposed to playing an MMO around their existing schedule.

Any dev that prioritizes trying to make the game someone's life over making the game an escape are doing it wrong. I know people like to mock XI's disclaimer to not forget your friends, family, work, and so on, but when you start planning your life around a video game, that's exactly what you're doing. Sure, you'll occasionally hear stories about how someone met their spouse in a game, but every one of those, there's likely innumerable more tales of people being exploited, ridiculed, and ultimately bullied by their online peers. Social interaction isn't all the warm and fuzzy feelings utopia that forced grouping might imply.

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Define "viable." No one is saying there shouldn't be solo content available. Every MMO worth its salt these days has solo content throughout the leveling curve and beyond. But if "viable" means "as rewarding as group content" then people aren't incentivized to push past the friction of doing that content, and if they're not doing that content they generally don't play the game as long. If you have data that shows otherwise, I'm sure that S-E would love to have it.

Short answer? Speed. Group content should get you to the good stuff faster. That's it.

Quote:
Now maybe you believe that's a Chicken and Egg situation and if some brave developer would just make this solo friendly end game utopia, they'd keep those players engaged and do just fine with it, but no one has managed to do it yet, and if you read Yoshi's comments he doesn't intend to be the first. And I would say, having just come from Guild Wars 2, that even developers who have committed to the "no pressure, no grind, solo all you like" mind set find themselves changing course quickly when they see their retention numbers after release. GW2 was almost universally praised, yet after the first few months the engagement level was dropping to an incredibly low level, so they reversed course and have been steadily playing up the role of large group play.

Want to know I dropped GW2 a couple months after launch? The bait and switch. Nevermind my disappointment about the hype of dynamic events. You spend all this time leveling to 80, exploring the world, collecting WPs, seeing Vistas, doing skill challenges, and generally improving your character only to hit a wall. Want better gear? You better like running dungeons (and eventually Fractals) until you're blue in the face or run around in the mindless WvW zergs until you get enough badges to buy some of that stuff. Being able to buy/craft a full T5 set the moment you hit 80 wasn't the problem, it was nothing for the individual to do after. The endgame zones sucked. The events required too many people that weren't participating because there were no meaningful rewards for participating. Legendary weapons were also thoroughly asinine. So much grinding for so little.

This isn't to say their large-man content didn't need help, either. Being in a guild didn't mean terribly much. A lot of times it was just a private chat channel. In following updates since, some people seem to like bounties. Some seem to hate them, if for any reason, their guild isn't "big enough" to actually make the most of it. Member poaching is also something I hate to see, as smaller groups of friends can wind up fragmented because in order to do something, they have to part ways with their smaller group that might not mesh as well with the bigger for reasons like schedule constraints or personalities. Some XI players may recognize this more simply as their friend joining an endgame shell and suddenly they're forever unable to help or turn into a giant douche because they finally have access to Real Ultimate Power(tm) within the game world.

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You're imagining motivations that simply don't exist and then complaining about those phantom motivations.

I see, so terms like "welfare epics" and the long running feud between Casuals and Hardcores/Elitists has just been a figment of my imagination this past decade. I feel so much better now knowing that everyone out there on the internet is so nice and welcoming.

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Confirmation bias. Before the conversation began you had already defined the motivation and arguments of any one who doesn't fall into line with you, so you see those motivations and arguments where they don't really exist.

Yet it's okay to insist the only way these games will thrive is if they follow the one true path of forced grouping. Call me a selfish, entitled mother@#%^er for wanting both to be viable if it makes you feel better, but I'd rather not keep players down just because time and luck doesn't favor them. They're gonna quit anyway.... right?


Following up on my earlier mentioning of the Magian system, I'd like to say some games have come close, but then dropped the ball. The Magian system was generally synonymous with Abyssea, a set of add-ons a lot would feel "saved" FFXI from swirling down the drain. You had rewards that weren't tied solely to mob loot pools. You had gear you could upgrade via quests, or more swiftly through grouping up and taking out NMs. The downfall, here, was that Abyssea was a level cap transition from 75 to 90. There was no upgrading Empyrean armor to +3 or beyond. The game stymied back into the raid content like Voidwatch and Legion where getting your gear was once more hoping for a 1% drop and hoping others don't out-lot you on it. Nowadays, if you're a new player trying to get into Adoulin without those things, you're not going to get far. Solo progression is simply integral for those who aren't there at the release of content and miss the rush.

Rift also had promise with currency like Infinity Stones found from endgame zone events and certain quests/dailies. Problem here is Trion deemed it wise to limit the final products of this gear to be two tiers behind raider stuff. The difference in performance is maddeningly huge, on the levels of 5k or more DPS in a game where top-end DPS values hover between 14-16k depending on role. Not only that, but acquiring a set solo would take far longer than the raid counterparts. It just struck me as terribly skewed in favor of grouping. From there, I saw the guild I was in fold because fielding 10 and 20-man content just couldn't happen reliably with everyone having their own lives/schedules, as well as people getting poached by other guilds. Eventually, I sat back and wondered if I wanted to subject myself to a guild run by (college) kids with little RL obligations, to endure all the player politics that comes with player-run point systems and who deserves what from random drops where I had no hope of competing with those who simply played more because said systems inevitably favor attendance, not so much performance. The answer was no. "Well, you chose not to participate! You don't deserve stuff!" I chose to value my time. I chose to not subject myself to headaches in my entertainment. Again, I'll flip the bird to anyone who insists that the wrong choice, because I could assure you I was still out there being social within the game. But since I didn't "need" stuff from X to do "stuff" from Y, it was A-OK to tell me my character was no longer allowed to grow. Why play? Why sub? Why should I reward a dev for holding me back? That lack of carrot is precisely why they lost me and people like me. People will come and go. That's inevitable. And really, those who feel they're opinion worth more because they've played a year instead over someone else's six months holds no guarantee they know more or what's right for the game.

Options aren't the enemy. Lack of content is.

Edit: And just to elucidate more on the "I've seen it all..." aspect of this, there might be a lingering question, "What about those who enjoy the coordination and difficulty of large group content? What do they get out of it?" If the satisfaction of completing such content isn't enough, then I pose it is about having an edge in gear, and in turn, ego. Because if it genuinely is about difficulty, better gear will actually make the current content easier. Though, this is also where I say things like difficulty modes are cool, not because hard mode gives item X+1, but rather hard mode should cough up item X more frequently with the added twist of making encounters more difficult with new moves/mobs/mechanics. Let distinction come from titles, achievements, pets, or even costume pieces. In turn, if the continued response is that, "That's not enough for me..." Well, now you know how I feel from my side of the fence.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 3:20am by Seriha
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#80 Jun 25 2013 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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Kashius1138 wrote:
[quote]I also think that there should be other content for level cap players who don't have a lot of time. Grand Companies are a good way to introduce this content. Escort missions that traverse multiple zones and have unique events occur (bandits, breakdowns requiring crafter repairs, runaway Chocobo that you have to catch, etc...), outpost defense (defense structure build phase for crafters, waves of mobs, bosses, stuff breaking and needing repair, elites, NM boss) and other stuff I'm probably not thinking of. And really...EVERY game needs a survival mode. 1-8 players. Instanced arena. Waves until you wipe. You get rewarded with GC currency that can be used to purchase gear outright or materials needed to craft epic OMGWTFPWNBBQ gear that is comparable to what the raiders are sporting.


There are some really fantastic ideas in this post. Especially the crafting stuff and survival mode ideas. I'd highly encourage you to post this in the stickied thread at the top or even on the beta forums. I'd love to see this implemented into the game.
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#81 Jun 25 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Aasher wrote:
After a long time playing FFXI, which I loved dearly, I wasn't particularly surprised at the end result of their next-generation MMORPG; FFXIV 1.0. It was certain things -- like not being able to jump, like Gridania's exterior being designed like an actual grid -- that really spoke poorly of S-E's approach to the game. Being familiar with the company from years and years spent playing FFXI, and how inflexible they were about certain things, I could see where XIV was headed and I gladly cast off the franchise with the opinion that they got what they deserved.

Fast forward to 2013 and somehow Square has accomplished a miracle; they have regained my trust and my interest (for this game, at least). Reading posts like this, they are saying exactly what I wanted/needed to hear and, as such, have made me a pre-ordering customer.

In particular, coming from other games like Guild Wars 2, I couldn't help but notice that I was playing a single-player game in an online world. GW2 has its fun parts, but at one point it donned on me that I was very near to the level cap after only a short period of time...and not once had the game guided me into meaningful interaction with other players. I had my complaints about FFXI, but the one thing that kept me playing for as long as I did was the community.

I am very glad to see that they are focusing on community building, on immersion, and on the sense of accomplishment that comes from difficulty and strategy.


This is so true... So true.

If you only play by yourself at all times, what is there to keep you playing? It becomes like a single player game, where at best you play for a few months.

Add the community to the equation and all of a sudden you're excited to get online and interact with others, especially the friends you've made! The MMO producers that understand this point are the ones who at minimum create loyal fan bases... a la XI. It certainly never had the biggest community in the world, but those who played it tended to stick around for a long time. Hence, the most profitable FF ever.

I think Yoshi understands this, and I really believe this game offers the perfect mixture of casual play with the hardcore... I know this game is going to achieve great things.

#82 Jun 25 2013 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow Seriha, it is scary how alike we think!! Everything I read from your posts are exactly how I feel! I just hope the developers have implemented ways for those of us who can't devote large chunks of time to devote our smaller chunks of time to something meaningful. There has been some really good suggestions already here, so I just hope for the best.
#83 Jun 25 2013 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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There are some really fantastic ideas in this post. Especially the crafting stuff and survival mode ideas. I'd highly encourage you to post this in the stickied thread at the top or even on the beta forums. I'd love to see this implemented into the game.


Thanks Bartel - I was wondering if anyone even reads my long *** posts, haha. For some strange reason though, I can't post on the beta forums anymore. I made 2 posts after the last beta weekend and now I can't reply to anything or start new threads. I didn't do anything to get myself banned so I'm pretty confuddled.

I'll post in the sticky thread though. And if you want to copy/paste/reformat my post and throw it on the beta boards, you're more than welcome to until I can get that issue resolved.
#84 Jun 25 2013 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Kashius1138 wrote:
Quote:
There are some really fantastic ideas in this post. Especially the crafting stuff and survival mode ideas. I'd highly encourage you to post this in the stickied thread at the top or even on the beta forums. I'd love to see this implemented into the game.


Thanks Bartel - I was wondering if anyone even reads my long *** posts, haha. For some strange reason though, I can't post on the beta forums anymore. I made 2 posts after the last beta weekend and now I can't reply to anything or start new threads. I didn't do anything to get myself banned so I'm pretty confuddled.

I'll post in the sticky thread though. And if you want to copy/paste/reformat my post and throw it on the beta boards, you're more than welcome to until I can get that issue resolved.


I will do that. You might want to see if you can contact a moderator on the beta forums, perhaps it was just accidental.
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#85 Jun 25 2013 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Kashius1138 wrote:
Quote:
There are some really fantastic ideas in this post. Especially the crafting stuff and survival mode ideas. I'd highly encourage you to post this in the stickied thread at the top or even on the beta forums. I'd love to see this implemented into the game.


Thanks Bartel - I was wondering if anyone even reads my long *** posts, haha. For some strange reason though, I can't post on the beta forums anymore. I made 2 posts after the last beta weekend and now I can't reply to anything or start new threads. I didn't do anything to get myself banned so I'm pretty confuddled.

I'll post in the sticky thread though. And if you want to copy/paste/reformat my post and throw it on the beta boards, you're more than welcome to until I can get that issue resolved.


I will do that. You might want to see if you can contact a moderator on the beta forums, perhaps it was just accidental.


This is normal. They turn off forum posting within a day or two after each Beta weekend so they can go through as many of the posts as possible. Posting's turned back on once another Beta weekend starts up.
#86 Jun 25 2013 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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Makes sense, so they aren't constantly bombarded. I was just going to post it in the general discussion, but perhaps I'll wait and just let Kashius post when they open them back up in the proper feedback section.
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#87 Jun 25 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Seriha wrote:
More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame. Doubly so if this group content demands large blocks of uninterrupted time. If the game can manage to keep more casual players from feeling like they're spinning their wheels and getting nowhere, then I'd call it a pretty significant step that other games have dropped the ball on for me.


How are you going to do end game without groups? I think at some point you're going to have to suck it up and join other people.


I think Yoshi already has a good handle on this in that Endgame will allow for the non-lead/support players to be able to still get rewards, by either doing FATEs, which allow you to fight alone, or with a party (alone you have a lot higher risk, and are treated worse by other players at the FATE). As well as low-man dungeon raids (though I haven't heard any of the requirements for any of the end dungeons, but it sounds like the two main ones will be full party).

As well, we will have Free Company rewards and benefits.

I personally know, as a HIGHLY obsessed player, but one who likes to play on my own terms, I spent a year in Sky with ZERO rewards.

Here is to hoping (at least for me) that my understanding of it is accurate. I don't need the same gear that people get from the towers, but something that is worthy.
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#88 Jun 25 2013 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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magred14 wrote:
Wow Seriha, it is scary how alike we think!! Everything I read from your posts are exactly how I feel! I just hope the developers have implemented ways for those of us who can't devote large chunks of time to devote our smaller chunks of time to something meaningful. There has been some really good suggestions already here, so I just hope for the best.

Sometimes I fear I think too much. In the end, I classify myself a hardcore casual. A bit of a contradiction there, I know, but in my pursuits of character progression, I try to be mindful of what others can and can't do. I just want people to have fun without putting down others and a game's content will directly influence how its players behave. Yes, I know I get colorful at points, but given the people I've fought with in the past, sometimes the only language they speak is mired in condescension. You can try to limit access by rarity or difficulty, but in my mind as an artist and someone who likes to create things, when I share them with others, I want others to see it. And I feel like that's too often lost in the MMO genre with people being okay that sub-30% of a game's population sees a certain boss, finishes a specific quest-line, or whatever where the only reason it isn't done is beyond the individual's control.


Kashius1138 wrote:
Quote:
There are some really fantastic ideas in this post. Especially the crafting stuff and survival mode ideas. I'd highly encourage you to post this in the stickied thread at the top or even on the beta forums. I'd love to see this implemented into the game.


Thanks Bartel - I was wondering if anyone even reads my long *** posts, haha. For some strange reason though, I can't post on the beta forums anymore. I made 2 posts after the last beta weekend and now I can't reply to anything or start new threads. I didn't do anything to get myself banned so I'm pretty confuddled.

As someone else who can lose themselves to long-winded rambling, I've read it, as I hope you noticed to my nod of someone "getting it". The content can exist, it's just a matter of devs making it and some players letting go of old, archaic notions of what MMOs are and aren't. And even if you're literally playing alone, the game is still more than single-player with the varieties of chat channels or even simple things like a passer-by saving your butt or you doing the same for someone else. You don't even have to say anything to each other after, as a simple action can snowball to influence others.
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#89 Jun 25 2013 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Transmigration wrote:
wcloudxkumo wrote:


Quote:

Jump not being essential for clearing content


Thank god.



Why?


Because it's retarded to have jump being essential to the game design when the game isn't a platformer? The only reason people wanted jump was because they wanted to see themselves jump and "Jump over obstacles rather than running around". He said from the get go jumping and swimming (if implemented) will never be essential to combat or content.

This is the one decision of his I respect.
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#90 Jun 25 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
Again, we're all paying to play. Do you rent a movie only to see 80% of it?
Do you stand in line to see a movie, and when you get to the counter demand someone else pay for the ticket, provide snacks, lead you to your seat, and explain the movie to you while you make noise and are a general pain in the *** to everyone around you? Because I bet what I just said happens more in MMOs than the "hospitable/prepared client" types.
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#91 Jun 25 2013 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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Again, we're all paying to play. Do you rent a movie only to see 80% of it?


Having lofty content that is unreachable for casual players is an important draw of MMOs. I never once thought "Yeah, I should get a Relic" in FFXI. I didn't have the time or commitment. But I didn't stomp my feet and hold my breath until Tanaka made it easy, I went on with my life.
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#92 Jun 25 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Having lofty content that is unreachable for casual players is an important draw of MMOs. I never once thought "Yeah, I should get a Relic" in FFXI. I didn't have the time or commitment. But I didn't stomp my feet and hold my breath until Tanaka made it easy, I went on with my life.


If two players play for 20 hours a week but player x strings those 20 hours together and player y has to space those 20 hours in bits and pieces does that make player x superior to player y? I don't think anyone is asking for anything free, I want to work at achieving stuff just as much as the next person, but I hope I can work at it with the time that I have.

I also hope there is a place for small group stuff in the end game, I personally really enjoy the ability to communicate in a more close knit setting and just do not particularly enjoy being a face in the crowd while the select two people in the group are the only ones allowed talk or else it becomes a communication nightmare, and understandably so. I think it would be awesome to be able to lan it up with a couple friends and actually tackle high end stuff. Anyways now I am just day dreaming about my favorite gaming experiences!
#93Theonehio, Posted: Jun 25 2013 at 12:27 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yep, we all "pay the same price" but why is that new MMOs are generally sucking? The whole "everyone is equal" and "access to everything by everyone" makes the MMO boring as **** quick and unbalanced as hell. The reason people liked/hated CoP was because of level caps, but also it took work to unlock certain end-game content, like any FF game, but MMOs these days? Everything is there for you after you run in a straight line of quests that mean nothing but EXP and Gil.
#94 Jun 25 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It sounds bad to say, but there should be a separation of Casual and "hardcore" content and casual players shouldn't have immediate access or even quick access to that content. Striving for something out of reach is one of the biggest draws of an MMO, joining an MMO to play 3 hours a week shouldn't get you the same benefits in any reality.


I think it is going a little far to say that there should be separate content that people can't access. Let's compare two players in the same guild.

Let's say on average it takes...10 total runs to farm gear (8 pieces) from a few T1 instances that will put you in a position to realistically do well in a T2. Each run takes a group of organized players about 3-5 hrs to do.

Player 1 does 12 (unlucky), 1 a day - 3x a week, and has now spent about 60hrs over 4wks getting gear. It's the fastest most efficient way to hit the goal amd Player 1 is able to block off those 3-5hrs at a time to get it done. Let's go ahead and include prep time of 1hr per run. Total of ~72hrs over 4 weeks (let's call that a month). Player 1 spent, on average, around 18hrs/week or just over 2.5hrs a day playing the game to achieve this goal. Bam. Player 1 is hardcore - Player 1 ******* rocks.

Player 2 logs in 3x a week and one night during the weekend. Most of the time they can get on for 1-2hrs and on the weekend night can sometimes marathon for around 5hrs, average 3. They can only manage a single T1 instance run a month. Player 2 plays an average of around 7hrs/week or 1hr/day. However, to get 8 pieces that's 10 runs at 1 run a month if they're lucky. Should it take Player 2, who is playing half as much on average as Player 1, 10x as long to achieve the same goal?

Instead, Player 2 should have other options. Escorts, outpost defense, survival, etc...P2 can do this stuff in the limited time they are usually on. The rewards (GC Seals for FFXIV) allow them to get a piece, that isn't quite the T1 set but certainly good enough for the T2 instance, once every 1-2 weeks (depending on difficulty attempted, success rates and luck). So now, instead of waiting a damn near a year (and possibly losing interest due to lack of things to do) for their 8 pieces of gear, player 2 can gear up and run the T2 in a little under 3 months if they get lucky on the couple raids they can manage to run in the 12 week span.

2-3x as long seems way more reasonable than 10x as long. Especially considering the player is playing about half as much. As long as the goal is attainable and in a reasonable amount of time people will continue to play instead of saying, ********** this. I'll never get to participate in endgame." and canceling...
#95 Jun 25 2013 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
Again, we're all paying to play. Do you rent a movie only to see 80% of it?


Having lofty content that is unreachable for casual players is an important draw of MMOs. I never once thought "Yeah, I should get a Relic" in FFXI. I didn't have the time or commitment. But I didn't stomp my feet and hold my breath until Tanaka made it easy, I went on with my life.


Yep, we all "pay the same price" but why is that new MMOs are generally sucking? The whole "everyone is equal" and "access to everything by everyone" makes the MMO boring as @#%^ quick and unbalanced as hell. The reason people liked/hated CoP was because of level caps, but also it took work to unlock certain end-game content, like any FF game, but MMOs these days? Everything is there for you after you run in a straight line of quests that mean nothing but EXP and Gil.


No, and it's completely asinine to think so. Do you know why they fail? They have wonky combat systems, miniscule or flat out uninteresting endgame activities, a story you can't get into, a division of the playerbase because of factions (which results in unbalanced server sizes and eliminates a lot of chances of finding people to play with), the game runs poorly on the majority of the systems, and/or the look of the game itself is just dull. Rift had a lot of things going right, except the story's really bleh, the engine they use makes combat floaty and not as responsive as it could be, and their initial pacing of endgame fights were horrendous (second boss of a raid instance being harder than any other in there is very poor judgement). SWTOR.... had story going for it and that's it.

People hated CoP because the missions were level capped for no reason outside of an artificial stretching out of content. They tried to pass it off as a "side along" story to RoZ.... except CoP came afterwards so that doesn't really work. Mission difficulty is a moot point as there were items that could be used to eliminate any thought process needed if players wished (pre-Tenzen BCNMs that is). Level capped meant you *NEEDED* find a group, which meant seeking in Jueno forever to find people, which meant hoping they were on the right step and weren't just assuming they could enter the BCNM, etc. The entire structure from the fetch quests sending you all across the world and numerous and pointless "WAIT UNTIL JP MIDNIGHT FOR GREAT BARANSU!" made the entire story not worth going after for the populace no matter how great Rajas Ring was or how good the story is (which I personally don't find all that great compared to WotG). Rise of Zilart had some running around but it was nowhere near the sheer amount of wasted time you spent on getting around just to see "Cutscene #317" that's barely 45 seconds long (not to mention RoZ's points of interest for missions were always near telepoints or outpost warps).

"Look! We sent you to Carpenter's Landing so you ... can.... notice how badly designed of a zone it is and no one will ever want to level here... or really Miseraux Coast... or Lufaise Meadows.... But hey! Here's some missions to send you to go through Movalpolis..... still terrible to try to group in but at least the music's catchy! You know what, just go back to Sky and kill weapons because it'll be faster!" By putting every single zone (with the exception of Carpenter's Landing, Bibiki Bay, and Purgonorgo Isle) behind mission gates it ruined any chance of appealing to the players and all of those zones' potential were wasted. They learned their lesson well when it came to ToAU and everything except for Salvage only required Mog Locker access.

People didn't do it because it wasn't personally worth their time. Sea? Gorgets could be low manned in a group at the time, the weapons from the jailors were really bad, and only a few of the class neck/torques were worth it. Limbus was the only reason to ever bother actually striving for Sea access and that's really sad. And that's not even going into the whole Absolute Flustercuck debacle...

Theonehio wrote:
It sounds bad to say, but there should be a separation of Casual and "hardcore" content and casual players shouldn't have immediate access or even quick access to that content. Striving for something out of reach is one of the biggest draws of an MMO, joining an MMO to play 3 hours a week shouldn't get you the same benefits in any reality.


Yeah, no.

Again, completely asinine.

I play an MMO going after goals I can achieve to have fun, not strive for something I'm never going to get. I sure as hell didn't play FFXI so I could pine away wistfully while knowing I'm never going to get a Kogarasumaru on my SAM and to suggest I did so is idiotic, stupid, and ignorant. I played because I had friends I enjoyed playing with and we did what we could. If we couldn't get it ourselves and it wasn't something we could easily PUG with a few people we put it out of our heads because the goals weren't realistic and it in no way somehow mysteriously became that which we played for hoping it would fall into our lap.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 7:00pm by Viertel
#96 Jun 25 2013 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
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magred14 wrote:
I just hope the developers have implemented ways for those of us who can't devote large chunks of time to devote our smaller chunks of time to something meaningful.

I think the key to this ultimately lies with the player, and not the developers. A player in that situation decides on what constitutes "something meaningful".

I fall into the camp of a player with limited playing time. Even when I was a bachelor during my early days in FFXI, I didn't feel like it was right for me to commit sufficient playing time to do all of the end game activities and reap the rewards associated with it. Now that I have a wife, a toddler son and another baby on the way, I definitely don't have that kind of time. I knew with FFXI that there were certain kinds of end game content I was never going to experience, and I'm sure that will be the case with FFXIV. And I'm fine with that. To me, a meaningful accomplishment was probably something mundane and trivial to those who lived and breathed end game content on a regular basis.
#97 Jun 25 2013 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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svlyons wrote:
magred14 wrote:
I just hope the developers have implemented ways for those of us who can't devote large chunks of time to devote our smaller chunks of time to something meaningful.

I think the key to this ultimately lies with the player, and not the developers. A player in that situation decides on what constitutes "something meaningful".

I fall into the camp of a player with limited playing time. Even when I was a bachelor during my early days in FFXI, I didn't feel like it was right for me to commit sufficient playing time to do all of the end game activities and reap the rewards associated with it. Now that I have a wife, a toddler son and another baby on the way, I definitely don't have that kind of time. I knew with FFXI that there were certain kinds of end game content I was never going to experience, and I'm sure that will be the case with FFXIV. And I'm fine with that. To me, a meaningful accomplishment was probably something mundane and trivial to those who lived and breathed end game content on a regular basis.



I'm in the same boat, I just want to have content to experience if its not end game, then something else.

The reason why FFXI had longevity for me was because things could be done solo albeit at a very slow pace. I never reached end game, but I did reach high enough level to see a lot of content I didn't get to see.

In short, because the world was so good(and there were timesinks), I didn't feel bad not getting to the end.

I soloed the Shadowlord, most AF NMs and other challenging things and it was fun.

If 2.0 can allow me to do that(like eventually solo instances) that would be OK!

Or if I can farm Gil, or get lucky with NM drops ( if and when they implement open world NMs) then that's enough for me too.

---

Ironically like the other poster even though I'm causal I'm occasionally hardcore and if the duty finder works, I'll probably actually be raiding quite a bit, at least at the beginning.
#98 Jun 27 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
A lot of interesting descriptions of hypothetical people. ;)

As a hardcore-gamer-turned-casual by family life, I can say that the single biggest incentive to continue playing at Endgame is having great friends online.

As many stated, gear and accomplishments (like the old Relic from FFXI) isn't even really on my radar. Carving out a whole weekend evening for an endgame Event (which requires a ton of groundwork to go smoothly) is not because I want something, it's just because I want to see the content and enjoy it with friends.

Luckily, the type of friends I have understand family limitations and really go out of their way to accommodate us casuals. The most hardcore players I know have everything they want anyway, and get the most satisfaction from helping old friends with less time to dedicate to the game.

It's all about the friends.
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