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#402 Jun 25 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Default
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Materia is basically the GEM system in WOW..... How is it unique ? How is crafting unique ? It's crafting... Smiley: lol yeah gathering is unique.... No other game has gathering.... Smiley: lol Oh yeah dungeons being part of the story... Did not happen in EQ2 nor in Wow, nor in rift, nor in Gw2 nor in swotor.... Smiley: lol

I sometimes do not know how some of you can post stuff like that with a straight face


Can you triple meld gear in WoW? Does the gear you're wearing get spiritbound to you, and then you can convert it into gems? No? That's how it's unique. Oh, and also... the Gem system in WoW is basically based off the materia system in FFVII (XIV's materia system is based off VII's materia system, hence why it's called materia and not gems or sockets Smiley: rolleyes)

How is crafting not unique? Have you ever seen another system like what FFXIV offers? I'm not saying there aren't other games with in-depth crafting systems, but I've never seen one like FFXIV, nor have I seen a gathering system as unique.

When exactly are dungeons part of the storyline in WoW or Rift or GW2 or Swtor? Are you required at any point to do them in order to proceed with the storyline, because I sure as heck don't remember that. I know for a fact it's not the case in swtor, gw2, or rift... and I certainly don't remember it being required in WoW (I stopped at WotLK). It's optional, and definitely not necessary starting at level 15. FFXIV makes the dungeons a mandatory part of the leveling experience, at least if you want to have any semblance of the story and not take a billion years to level on mobs, leves, and FATEs.

I sometimes do not know how you can post stuff like this and think it somehow strengthens your argument.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 8:32am by BartelX


It's called materia, because of nostalgia, they could have called it **** for that meter, and it would still be a socket/gem system, that from what i can tell, you have no idea where it came from, since socket/gem system was in place in Ultima online... A game that predates FFVII... Hmmm! But i am sure Blizzard based it on VII Smiley: lol Btw the materia system is based on the Esper system of VI..... Smiley: lol

Did you ever crafted in EQ2 ? I am sure EQ2 predates XIV....

Dungeons are part of the story in every single MMORPG, or are you saying they are just instances that have no relation to the world in those games ? I am pretty sure in wow/rift/swotor/gw2 etc etc that there are quest that lead to dungeons, and quest that are entirely based in Dungeons. To say this game integrates it more than in any other game, is silly, and is a straw argument.

Your argument is "Is not unique on it's own, but by having us press K instead of L, it becomes Unique" Smiley: lol

Good try tho, now tell me more about that UNIQUE STORYLINE
#403 Jun 25 2013 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
Right, because breaking down items to make upgrade materials is exactly the same as the materia system (which SE conceived more than a decade ago).

Smiley: yippee
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#404 Jun 25 2013 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
Ostia, if we want to follow your logic and keep reaching back to justify arguments that things are "copied," why don't we just end this argument right now.

WoW, GW2, ARR, Ultima Online, FFXI and every single other MMORPG, book, movie or any other source of story-driven entertainment is actually copied from the lore of ancient human civilization.

Nothing is original! None of us are snowflakes!

Smiley: eek

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 8:52am by Thayos
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#405 Jun 25 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Default
Hey! I would have you address it as the Esper System! Since that is the original concept from which the materia system came From!

You will show your respect to VI! Infidel!
#406 Jun 25 2013 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
Kashius1138 wrote:
Are you serious dude? How is materia unique? There is no other game that I've played, seen or read about that allows you to make use of your old gear in a way that FFXIV does. Most games after you're done with a piece of gear you either vendor it because it is soulbound and can't be traded or put it on the AH. This game gives the player more choices with what to do with that used gear than I've ever seen.


There are actually quite a few MMORPGs which let you break down equipment into upgrade materials.


Yeah, it's pretty much exactly like the system in WoW. Essentially, you turn old gear into a crafting material which allows you to enchant the new gear you just got with bonus stats. It may not be exact in name or procedure, but the end result is identical.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#407 Jun 25 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Yeah, it's pretty much exactly like the system in WoW. Essentially, you turn old gear into a crafting material which allows you to enchant the new gear you just got with bonus stats. It may not be exact in name or procedure, but the end result is identical.



And WoW got that system from Final Fantasy, which came out years earlier.

So, we really shouldn't be portraying materia as something FF is copying from WoW, when really, it's something numerous games have attempted to copy from Final Fantasy.

Remember, Final Fantasy VII is one of the most popular video games of all time. There's no shame in WoW using systems from that game.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 9:26am by Thayos
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#408 Jun 25 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Default
Materia didn't work that way in VII though.
#409 Jun 25 2013 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, it's pretty much exactly like the system in WoW. Essentially, you turn old gear into a crafting material which allows you to enchant the new gear you just got with bonus stats. It may not be exact in name or procedure, but the end result is identical.



And WoW got that system from Final Fantasy, which came out years earlier.

So, we really shouldn't be portraying materia as something FF is copying from WoW, when really, it's something numerous games have attempted to copy from Final Fantasy.

Remember, Final Fantasy VII is one of the most popular video games of all time. There's no shame in WoW using systems from that game.


You're reaching a bit here Thayos. The response I gave was in reply to this...
Kashius1138 wrote:
There is no other game that I've played, seen or read about that allows you to make use of your old gear in a way that FFXIV does.


The systems in WoW and XIV are similar in that regard, but completely different from materia as it existed in FFVII. To say that WoW's enchanting system copied FFVII's materia system is quite a stretch...

There are things that WoW borrow from various games, but I wouldn't count materia as one of them.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#410 Jun 25 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
The concept is there though. So, to me, it is silly when people imply that SE based its material system on WoW, rather than its own Material system.

Just because something appears in WoW does not mean that WoW invented it.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 10:23am by Thayos
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#411 Jun 25 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Default
Thayos wrote:
The concept is there though. So, to me, it is silly when people imply that SE based its material system on WoW, rather than its own Material system.

Just because something appears in WoW does not mean that WoW invented it.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 10:23am by Thayos


I never said "Oh SE copied Blizzard" I said the materia system is the equivalent of the socket/gem system in World of Warcraft... Which it Is!

Also that system was in Ultima online.... Did they copied SE ? Smiley: lol
#412 Jun 25 2013 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
It's called materia, because of nostalgia, they could have called it **** for that meter, and it would still be a socket/gem system, that from what i can tell, you have no idea where it came from, since socket/gem system was in place in Ultima online... A game that predates FFVII... Hmmm! But i am sure Blizzard based it on VII Smiley: lol Btw the materia system is based on the Esper system of VI..... Smiley: lol


UO was released September 1997 and FFVII was released January 1997, nice try though. Also, the materia system is not derived from the Esper system. The two systems are completely different. Espers, you could equip 1 at a time, they taught you spells permanently, and affected your stat gains at level-up when equipped. Materia, you could equip many of them, you could only use the skills from them when equipped, and the stat gains were a static amount based on the materia level, which you lost if you unequipped them. That's like saying apples are derived from oranges because they are both round and sweet.

Ostia wrote:
Dungeons are part of the story in every single MMORPG, or are you saying they are just instances that have no relation to the world in those games ? I am pretty sure in wow/rift/swotor/gw2 etc etc that there are quest that lead to dungeons, and quest that are entirely based in Dungeons. To say this game integrates it more than in any other game, is silly, and is a straw argument.


You can go 1-50 in swtor, 1-60 in Rift, 1-80 in WoW, 1-80 in GW2 without touching dungeons, and the only negative impact it has on your character is that you don't get to read the 3-4 quests that are done within the dungeons. They aren't part of the main storyline, they are like sidequests at best that you do as an alternate means of experience. Within the first 20 levels of FFXIV, you go through 3 dungeons that are 100% required to advance the main storyline. It's not a straw argument, it's a genuine difference from every other mainstream mmo.

I understand that you don't like certain aspects of the game, there are several that I'd like to see improvements on also. But a lot of what you are arguing is either completely inaccurate (UO coming out before FFVII and materia coming from esper system) or just stretched to your own agenda. It's quite futile to even try and have a conversation with you sometimes...

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 1:53pm by BartelX

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 1:53pm by BartelX
#413 Jun 25 2013 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Thayos wrote:
The concept is there though. So, to me, it is silly when people imply that SE based its material system on WoW, rather than its own Material system.

Just because something appears in WoW does not mean that WoW invented it.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 10:23am by Thayos


I never said "Oh SE copied Blizzard" I said the materia system is the equivalent of the socket/gem system in World of Warcraft... Which it Is!

Also that system was in Ultima online.... Did they copied SE ? Smiley: lol


And they all stole from D&D. I'm sure D&D stole from something else and I'm just too lazy to google it.

Iteration and progress. That's all anything is. The real question should be, does this system do anything new or fix any negative aspects from other similar systems?
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#414 Jun 25 2013 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Yeah, it's pretty much exactly like the system in WoW. Essentially, you turn old gear into a crafting material which allows you to enchant the new gear you just got with bonus stats. It may not be exact in name or procedure, but the end result is identical.


You got that one. I left WoW before they introduced the Jewelcrafting profession. I read up on it a bit just now and it seems to be somewhat similar. From what I read, it seems the primary difference is that the must be used in order to be broken down in Materia. Other than that, you're pretty much right on the systems having pretty similar functions.

And I can't even counter with, "I said games I have personally played, seen or read about." because I played WoW. Doh. Color me corrected.

Quote:
Did you ever crafted in EQ2 ? I am sure EQ2 predates XIV....


I almost forgot about the EQ2 crafting system - Which one are you talking about? Before or after the change to it? In either case, they are not the same. Similar in the fact that there are abilities to use. But the way in which you interact with your craft is totally different. EQ2 was more like you were in combat with the damn craft (you could die from damage in version 1). I loved it. However, the XIV system is more about the crafter utilizing skills to directly affect the craft vs. having the RNG determine what gains you get based on your actions (again, much like combat). In XIV you can use actions to increase chances of success, crafting stats and then combo them to other actions that boost progress/quality/durability based on what YOU did. Elemental affinity, state and other factors come in to play that are controlled by RNG, but the crafting in XIV really is unlike any other game.
#415 Jun 25 2013 at 12:20 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
The concept is there though. So, to me, it is silly when people imply that SE based its material system on WoW, rather than its own Material system.

Dude, it's ok to make a comment about something without realizing that it's out of context. Usually you just say something to the effect of "Oh, well I thought we were talking about FF in general still" and everyone moves on...

There's really only 3 pieces of information we need here.

1) The materia systems from VII and XIV are different.
2) Only one of them is similar to WoW's enchanting system.
3) WoW's enchanting system came before XIV's materia system.

No one said WoW invented anything, just that a similar system was used in WoW before it was implemented in XIV. The system from VII isn't nearly the same as either WoW or XIV so I'm not sure why it's even being brought up.

There's nothing wrong with saying that WoW borrowed from games before it. Why then is there something wrong with saying that WoW did something that other games borrowed?


Edited, Jun 25th 2013 2:22pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#416 Jun 25 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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The closest comparison of the crafting system is Vanguard. You do not like crafting, that's fine. But while ARR combat is getting"I love it" or "Dull" or "Similar to X".
The crafting in ARR is getting praise from anyone who cares about crafting in mmos.
#417 Jun 25 2013 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Thayos wrote:
...or any other source of story-driven entertainment is actually copied from the lore of ancient human civilization.


Ha! The original material system is depicted in cuneiform here.

Screenshot


They copied the whole system directly from Mesopotamia: Online.
#418 Jun 25 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
You tell me, Filth. Why are some people making shared gaming mechanics into a big deal?
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#419 Jun 25 2013 at 1:23 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
You tell me, Filth. Why are some people making shared gaming mechanics into a big deal?


Because they don't want their game to be 'moar liek WoW'?
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#420 Jun 25 2013 at 1:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,422 posts
Thayos wrote:
Why are some people making shared gaming mechanics into a big deal?


[facetious]
Because any sort of similarity to WoW = WoW clone, and WoW is EVILBADWRONG, so a WoW clone is even more EVILBADWRONG. I thought that was obvious.
[/facetious]
#421 Jun 25 2013 at 1:24 PM Rating: Default
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
It's called materia, because of nostalgia, they could have called it **** for that meter, and it would still be a socket/gem system, that from what i can tell, you have no idea where it came from, since socket/gem system was in place in Ultima online... A game that predates FFVII... Hmmm! But i am sure Blizzard based it on VII Smiley: lol Btw the materia system is based on the Esper system of VI..... Smiley: lol


UO was released September 1997 and FFVII was released January 1997, nice try though. Also, the materia system is not derived from the Esper system. The two systems are completely different. Espers, you could equip 1 at a time, they taught you spells permanently, and affected your stat gains at level-up when equipped. Materia, you could equip many of them, you could only use the skills from them when equipped, and the stat gains were a static amount based on the materia level, which you lost if you unequipped them. That's like saying apples are derived from oranges because they are both round and sweet.

Ostia wrote:
Dungeons are part of the story in every single MMORPG, or are you saying they are just instances that have no relation to the world in those games ? I am pretty sure in wow/rift/swotor/gw2 etc etc that there are quest that lead to dungeons, and quest that are entirely based in Dungeons. To say this game integrates it more than in any other game, is silly, and is a straw argument.


You can go 1-50 in swtor, 1-60 in Rift, 1-80 in WoW, 1-80 in GW2 without touching dungeons, and the only negative impact it has on your character is that you don't get to read the 3-4 quests that are done within the dungeons. They aren't part of the main storyline, they are like sidequests at best that you do as an alternate means of experience. Within the first 20 levels of FFXIV, you go through 3 dungeons that are 100% required to advance the main storyline. It's not a straw argument, it's a genuine difference from every other mainstream mmo.

I understand that you don't like certain aspects of the game, there are several that I'd like to see improvements on also. But a lot of what you are arguing is either completely inaccurate (UO coming out before FFVII and materia coming from esper system) or just stretched to your own agenda. It's quite futile to even try and have a conversation with you sometimes...

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 1:53pm by BartelX

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 1:53pm by BartelX


Lmao! Are you seriously fishing that hard BartelX ? Really ? Yes yes i bet the people at Ultima where like.. Oh look at that system in FFVII lets borrow it, 2-3 months before relase, even tho we have no idea wtf it is, or how we can implement it.... Smiley: lol You are Priceless!

Also the Materia system is based on the Esper system in VI just like Limit Breaks where based of desperation moves in VI, Ito has said so himself... You know the guy that created the stuff.... Also your logic is so dumb... Oh espers and materia are not the same... You learn spells on both from items you equip, and you get bonus stats... But in one if you un-equip the item you lose the stats... Oh and you can equip multiple ones in another one.....Therefore not the same... Smiley: lol

What are you gonna say now ? That Limit Breaks where not based of Desperation Moves in VI ? Because in one you can control it and in the other one, you have to have low health to unleash them ? So is like totally different Smiley: lol

Oh and Really ? Really ? Oh yes those dungeons are involved in the story line of those MMO'S and are part of the world, and have quest, and lore and all that, but in here they are forced upon you, therefore FFXIV FIRST MMO TO HAVE STORY DUNGEONS ljdfaslfjlajflajfa jajsf

Please keep posting stuff like this BartelX
#422 Jun 25 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
Thayos wrote:
You tell me, Filth. Why are some people making shared gaming mechanics into a big deal?


Overreactions... Somebody said X or Y is unique to this game, i said nah, it's only this games version of Y or X system... People lost their minds
#423 Jun 25 2013 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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6,899 posts
Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
It's called materia, because of nostalgia, they could have called it **** for that meter, and it would still be a socket/gem system, that from what i can tell, you have no idea where it came from, since socket/gem system was in place in Ultima online... A game that predates FFVII... Hmmm! But i am sure Blizzard based it on VII Smiley: lol Btw the materia system is based on the Esper system of VI..... Smiley: lol


UO was released September 1997 and FFVII was released January 1997, nice try though. Also, the materia system is not derived from the Esper system. The two systems are completely different. Espers, you could equip 1 at a time, they taught you spells permanently, and affected your stat gains at level-up when equipped. Materia, you could equip many of them, you could only use the skills from them when equipped, and the stat gains were a static amount based on the materia level, which you lost if you unequipped them. That's like saying apples are derived from oranges because they are both round and sweet.

Ostia wrote:
Dungeons are part of the story in every single MMORPG, or are you saying they are just instances that have no relation to the world in those games ? I am pretty sure in wow/rift/swotor/gw2 etc etc that there are quest that lead to dungeons, and quest that are entirely based in Dungeons. To say this game integrates it more than in any other game, is silly, and is a straw argument.


You can go 1-50 in swtor, 1-60 in Rift, 1-80 in WoW, 1-80 in GW2 without touching dungeons, and the only negative impact it has on your character is that you don't get to read the 3-4 quests that are done within the dungeons. They aren't part of the main storyline, they are like sidequests at best that you do as an alternate means of experience. Within the first 20 levels of FFXIV, you go through 3 dungeons that are 100% required to advance the main storyline. It's not a straw argument, it's a genuine difference from every other mainstream mmo.

I understand that you don't like certain aspects of the game, there are several that I'd like to see improvements on also. But a lot of what you are arguing is either completely inaccurate (UO coming out before FFVII and materia coming from esper system) or just stretched to your own agenda. It's quite futile to even try and have a conversation with you sometimes...

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 1:53pm by BartelX

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 1:53pm by BartelX


Lmao! Are you seriously fishing that hard BartelX ? Really ? Yes yes i bet the people at Ultima where like.. Oh look at that system in FFVII lets borrow it, 2-3 months before relase, even tho we have no idea wtf it is, or how we can implement it.... Smiley: lol You are Priceless!

Also the Materia system is based on the Esper system in VI just like Limit Breaks where based of desperation moves in VI, Ito has said so himself... You know the guy that created the stuff.... Also your logic is so dumb... Oh espers and materia are not the same... You learn spells on both from items you equip, and you get bonus stats... But in one if you un-equip the item you lose the stats... Oh and you can equip multiple ones in another one.....Therefore not the same... Smiley: lol

What are you gonna say now ? That Limit Breaks where not based of Desperation Moves in VI ? Because in one you can control it and in the other one, you have to have low health to unleash them ? So is like totally different Smiley: lol

Oh and Really ? Really ? Oh yes those dungeons are involved in the story line of those MMO'S and are part of the world, and have quest, and lore and all that, but in here they are forced upon you, therefore FFXIV FIRST MMO TO HAVE STORY DUNGEONS ljdfaslfjlajflajfa jajsf

Please keep posting stuff like this BartelX


Nah, I'm bored with your constant trolling and misinformation. Maybe when you grow up and can have a civilized discussion about something I'll respond, until then, see you in-game! Smiley: tongue
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#424 Jun 25 2013 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I am not going to enter the debate between Ostia and Bartel because you are both kind of right and kind of wrong.

Ostia is right about materia being built off the idea that espers laid out before. But in that same explanation was proof that VII did not copy materia from Ultima. FFVI predates Ultima Online.

All games borrow from others whether we like it or not. I'd much rather have ARR borrow from it's own franchise than other franchises. That by nature makes it not spontaneous original but original nonetheless since the same company came up with origin.

I wish Matsui would ask Ito to help design some mechanics to add to the game in some areas. The man is a genius.
#425 Jun 25 2013 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Wow, this thread has over 10k views. How awesome is that!
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#426 Jun 25 2013 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Why are some people making shared gaming mechanics into a big deal?
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