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#127 Jun 12 2013 at 8:01 PM Rating: Default
You don't need to insult me saying I didn't know how to play, etc. It was incredibly simplistic.

Anyway, my biggest issue was the lack of any kind of micromanagement, again. Surely you can understand that complaint. I really don't like how you just get tons of TP just for starting a fight. It's bizarre and not fun (IMO, of course).

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:07pm by Killua125
#128 Jun 12 2013 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
Any more info about Archer>Bard. I heard the only physical range dps class in the game were extremely sub-par in damage output. I mained a Bard in FFXI and a Hunter in vanilla WOW before going Druid so the style of both interests me. I don't mind that they do not equal in dps as the pure dps classes, but I don't want a staggering gap between them. Having a 6%-10% base difference is acceptable since I heard they are partially a support class, but anything more would be disappointing if they don't have the ability to replace a White Mage in groups. But then again, I don't want to be the main healer either. I guess, one of the things I'm afraid of is when you are LFG, Archer/Bard becomes a last pick since they turned out to be an insignificant requirement for group progression.


Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:28pm by niquev71
#129 Jun 12 2013 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
You don't need to insult me saying I didn't know how to play, etc. It was incredibly simplistic.

Anyway, my biggest issue was the lack of any kind of micromanagement, again. Surely you can understand that complaint. I really don't like how you just get tons of TP just for starting a fight. It's bizarre and not fun (IMO, of course).


I didn't insult you. I criticized the play approach you were supporting. Please realize the difference. Also, I did specify that the reason for your opinion was due to the ease of the monsters, not by implying that you were a simpleton or anything of the sort.

I disagree on your micromanagement issue. By 35, Lancer had a clear ideal rotation for monsters that could survive that long.

Heavy Thrust combo, into Phlembumize (Maximinzing DoT effect) Raging Strikes (For damage spike) Into True Thrust combo twice to three times depending on need for evasion. On the first True Thrust you use Life Surge before completing combo.

Afterwards you refreshed Heavy Thrust and that damn DoT skill I can't spell.

As far as the TP issue. I flatly don't agree with you. TP in FFXI is the Limit Gage in FFXIV on an individual level. It promotes very passive play and puts Melee classes deeply behind Magic Classes in terms of front-loaded damage output. Now, TP is very similar in regards to MP and needs to be managed more or less with the same regard, which in my opinion is not a bad thing.
#130 Jun 12 2013 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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niquev71 wrote:
Any more info about Archer>Bard. I heard the only physical range dps class in the game were extremely sub-par in damage output. I mained a Bard in FFXI and a Hunter in vanilla WOW before going Druid so the style of both interests me. I don't mind that they do not equal in dps as the pure dps classes, but I don't want a staggering gap between them. Having a 6%-10% base difference is acceptable since I heard they are partially a support class, but anything more would be disappointing if they don't have the ability to replace a White Mage in groups. But then again, I don't want to be the main healer either. I guess, one of the things I'm afraid of is when you are LFG, Archer/Bard becomes a last pick since they turned out to be an insignificant requirement for group progression.


Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:28pm by niquev71


Archer/Bard should be a high priority pick due to being a support class. As a Bard, you won't be main healer, but rather enhanse the performance of all members of the party by providing strong buffs that will improve the MP/TP supply, or improving accuracy or attack.

Bards are usually a high priority pick due to this universal assistance they provide, on top of moderate DPS and support cures.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:38pm by Hyrist
#131 Jun 12 2013 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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The issue has always been enemy characteristics. You could have the most polished/balanced classes in the history of mmos. If the monsters are one trick ponies and fall over and die like ants. All that class power means diddly squat.

It's rather late in the game to rebalance every monster in the game at this point by launch. So at best we might get enemies HP and defenses boosted up for a short term fix. And hopefully, after launch they take the time to go back and work on enemy characteristics.

Are these battle easy mode comments just related to trash mobs and low level dungeons or later in the game as well?

I think the best way to make hotkey combat(similar to other mmos) feel different and require more than rotations:

1. Is to implement a skill modifier feature as I suggested before. This involves holding or tapping keys to manipulate things like potency, accuracy, criticals, mp conservation, range, AoE spread, conal spread, etc, etc. Each skill has it's own unique modifier applications and make repeatedly used skills effectiveness decay at a steady rate.

Then people can still say you push 1-2-1-3-1, whatever. But... It's not just taking which button you press but at what time you release the said buttons. It's still not twitch skill, but it creates a cerebral correlation on top of the gear and stat builds a player strives for. Am I pumping out good damage? Am I over spending my resources? How should I fine tune my modifiers to fit the appropriate need for this situation?

In a twitch based game, resources can be overcome by moving around. In a static to semi static environment, resources are what makes a game hard when your resources are vastly inferior to the enemies.

Jobs could become more party dependant to maintain resources as their description implies. Classes are more resourceful but lack that punch at the roles jobs fill. That's my two cents anyways....
#132 Jun 12 2013 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
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You're making the assumption that monster adjustments started at the end of phase 2. It quite simply did not.

The monster revisions, along with most of the feedback provided through phase 1 and 2, were started as early as the Alpha feedbacks. The issues that exploded the forums were not new at all, there was a laundry list that Yoshida and crew were already going through by the time the full of Legacy Players got their hands on the Beta. The list grew, of course, but the monster adjustments, the combat system adjustments, they were already continual and ongoing as the Beta phases 1 and 2 were taking place.

So yah, adjusting all monster mechanics is well within the preview of several months, especially with the server-side client they created for themselves, which, by their own word, is fairly robust and customizable in and of itself.

That said, other recommendations, I'd say we can hold off until after this weekends inital impressions before we reiterate. Again, I don't expect everyone to be satisfied, but for now we can see what sort of fruit our feedback bore and what the full of the combat system will be like, now that we've got the Limit Break system in place.

Kind of not happy that I won't be able to test level 50 character's abilities right away, but at least I can push up the initial latter and see how they changed the ability progress.
#133 Jun 13 2013 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
So you can now buy an item directly from the ward search screen?

EDIT: Where does it go, straight to your inventory?


Edited, Jun 13th 2013 3:11am by Gnu
#134 Jun 13 2013 at 1:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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niquev71 wrote:
Any more info about Archer>Bard. I heard the only physical range dps class in the game were extremely sub-par in damage output. I mained a Bard in FFXI and a Hunter in vanilla WOW before going Druid so the style of both interests me. I don't mind that they do not equal in dps as the pure dps classes, but I don't want a staggering gap between them. Having a 6%-10% base difference is acceptable since I heard they are partially a support class, but anything more would be disappointing if they don't have the ability to replace a White Mage in groups. But then again, I don't want to be the main healer either. I guess, one of the things I'm afraid of is when you are LFG, Archer/Bard becomes a last pick since they turned out to be an insignificant requirement for group progression.


Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:28pm by niquev71


In the Ifrit demo (lol) there was an archer firing off shots at the fiery beast. I'm not sure if the devs handpicked classes/jobs for the testers or if they had the option to choose. If it was the former, then perhaps Archer is being developed in to a nice ranged DPS class. If the damage is still low post P4 though, expect to be rolling bard or choosing a real DD job as your main. I loved RNG in FFXI and my main class in WoW was a Huntard for many years, so I'm hoping for it too. BRD might be really ******* fun and desirable though, so we'll see.
#135 Jun 13 2013 at 1:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Transmigration wrote:
niquev71 wrote:
Any more info about Archer>Bard. I heard the only physical range dps class in the game were extremely sub-par in damage output. I mained a Bard in FFXI and a Hunter in vanilla WOW before going Druid so the style of both interests me. I don't mind that they do not equal in dps as the pure dps classes, but I don't want a staggering gap between them. Having a 6%-10% base difference is acceptable since I heard they are partially a support class, but anything more would be disappointing if they don't have the ability to replace a White Mage in groups. But then again, I don't want to be the main healer either. I guess, one of the things I'm afraid of is when you are LFG, Archer/Bard becomes a last pick since they turned out to be an insignificant requirement for group progression.


Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:28pm by niquev71


In the Ifrit demo (lol) there was an archer firing off shots at the fiery beast. I'm not sure if the devs handpicked classes/jobs for the testers or if they had the option to choose. If it was the former, then perhaps Archer is being developed in to a nice ranged DPS class. If the damage is still low post P4 though, expect to be rolling bard or choosing a real DD job as your main. I loved RNG in FFXI and my main class in WoW was a Huntard for many years, so I'm hoping for it too. BRD might be really @#%^ing fun and desirable though, so we'll see.


I think Archer would be a really enjoyable class if it were the ultimate damage dealer and SUPER squishy. Thus making the job of the tank even more important!
#136 Jun 13 2013 at 1:53 AM Rating: Good
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Blah still waiting for info about ARN/SMN =( When do you guy think that they will release gameplay vids etc about the class/job? I'm pretty sure it was stated somewhere in an interview that it would come at E3, but so far I've seen nothing =(
#137 Jun 13 2013 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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There's one more day of FFXIV goodness so there's a good chance of seeing something then.
#138 Jun 13 2013 at 2:34 AM Rating: Good
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Parathyroid wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
niquev71 wrote:
Any more info about Archer>Bard. I heard the only physical range dps class in the game were extremely sub-par in damage output. I mained a Bard in FFXI and a Hunter in vanilla WOW before going Druid so the style of both interests me. I don't mind that they do not equal in dps as the pure dps classes, but I don't want a staggering gap between them. Having a 6%-10% base difference is acceptable since I heard they are partially a support class, but anything more would be disappointing if they don't have the ability to replace a White Mage in groups. But then again, I don't want to be the main healer either. I guess, one of the things I'm afraid of is when you are LFG, Archer/Bard becomes a last pick since they turned out to be an insignificant requirement for group progression.


Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:28pm by niquev71


In the Ifrit demo (lol) there was an archer firing off shots at the fiery beast. I'm not sure if the devs handpicked classes/jobs for the testers or if they had the option to choose. If it was the former, then perhaps Archer is being developed in to a nice ranged DPS class. If the damage is still low post P4 though, expect to be rolling bard or choosing a real DD job as your main. I loved RNG in FFXI and my main class in WoW was a Huntard for many years, so I'm hoping for it too. BRD might be really @#%^ing fun and desirable though, so we'll see.


I think Archer would be a really enjoyable class if it were the ultimate damage dealer and SUPER squishy. Thus making the job of the tank even more important!


That's pretty much guaranteed to not happen. Let's all stop kidding ourselves that ranged glass cannons are balanced features of mmos. Ranger essentially killed every other physical dps in ffxi for about 2years under this pretense. It just doesn't work as a concept.
#139 Jun 13 2013 at 6:05 AM Rating: Excellent
Gnu wrote:
So you can now buy an item directly from the ward search screen?

EDIT: Where does it go, straight to your inventory?


Edited, Jun 13th 2013 3:11am by Gnu


We don't know yet, the "AH" system wasn't implemented in the earlier phases. I believe it's supposed to be here for phase 3 although I can't find it on the roadmap.
#140 Jun 13 2013 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
You don't need to insult me saying I didn't know how to play, etc. It was incredibly simplistic.

Anyway, my biggest issue was the lack of any kind of micromanagement, again. Surely you can understand that complaint. I really don't like how you just get tons of TP just for starting a fight. It's bizarre and not fun (IMO, of course).

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:07pm by Killua125


You played a mindless DD and your complaint was "the fighting was mindless!"

Seriously..

Have you ever played an MMO that was challenging at level 20? I have not. Go back and play FFXI, this combat system is more engaging at 20 than FFXI's at 50. It wasn't until 55+ combat got a bit challenging, when al lthe jobs got their big ws's and hate management was a problem. And no, I'm not counting skillchains because they were dead and buried by 2006.

Tanking is very involved and required attention, skill, and resource management. I did feel that the TP regenerated too fast in the early levels, until I got to the first and second dungeons where I scraped and struggled for every inch on that tiny little meter, just hoping I could get off another shield lob to save our conjurer's life.

Admittedly, I didn't play Lancer. But it probably wasn't much different than 1.0, and it was a mindless DD zerg jobs there too.
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#141 Jun 13 2013 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Gnu wrote:
So you can now buy an item directly from the ward search screen?

EDIT: Where does it go, straight to your inventory?


Edited, Jun 13th 2013 3:11am by Gnu


We don't know yet, the "AH" system wasn't implemented in the earlier phases. I believe it's supposed to be here for phase 3 although I can't find it on the roadmap.

The market board was implemented but yea, it's still going through changes. From what I remember though, buying an item did go straight to your inventory, there just wasn't a whole lot of activity to test it much. Most of the time there was nothing up last phase.

I for one am very much looking forward to today. Should see info on SMN, SCH, and who knows what else. Hopefully around the time the live letter starts no one at work will be bothering me.
#142 Jun 13 2013 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
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Side note about combat, from the translations that I read I'm looking forward to seeing it myself this weekend. And I'm also excited about MNK which I never really cared as much about. I'll quote two of Reinhart's translations.

Quote:
How are the caster jobs progressing?

Y: It may be hard to tell by looking at the job action movie we released earlier but for Conjurer and Thaumaturge there are elements called Astral Fire and Astral Blizzard, and if you continue using Blizzard type spells your element becomes Blizard based, and if you use Fire based you’ll become more Fire based. You’ll be able to tell right away by the fireballs circling around your character. With that state your fire damage from any damage will increase, however your MP usage will also increase a lot. Also there is something called Stance Change and there is Astral Fire level 1, level 2, level 3, for example if you cast 2 fire type spells you’ll have Lv2 Astral Fire element on your, while in that mode if you use stance change it switches to blizzard level 2 so you can add on blizzard spells with a cost of much faster MP regen. So you can look at the remaining MP and cast Fire till your MP is near depleted and then switching to blizzard, by doing that the MP will recover at really fast speed. You can cast blizzard to keep the continue damaging the mob and once the MP is regained to switch to Fire, then put in Thunder for DoT. For those that played 1.x FFXIV may feel that it has changed.

Quote:
Battle balance has been modified this time around but what do you think about balance between jobs?

Y: Easiest one to compare is Monk and Dragoon, their roles are both close range DPS, but for Monk they have something called Style. There are actions that can only be used while you’re in that specific style and by using that action it could switch to another style to use the next action. It will be where you can go through different position/actions in order 1>3>4>7>8 for the first round but 2nd round going 1>3>5>6 and going back to 1. By doing that correctly the DPS and attack speed will increase. So in the beginning it will be slow, but if you can keep it going it will be amazing. (Note: Just think of it as fighting game continuing combos).

Dragoon on the other hand is much more standard close range DPS, you stand in specific position to deal big damage with combo’s but if you do too much you’ll take hate easily. Also there are skills where you have to use from behind to deal the additional effect or jump where you need to be behind the mob and far away at same time. Or skills where you’re running in from behind and jump and stunning the mob with floor sweep then dealing combo from the side, then using abilities leading up to Dragon Dive. It’s standard close range DPS but made it where it looks cool for Dragoon, while Monk will require to think about how to keep the chain going, they are both same DPS but have different ways to be played. It’s up to the players style. Also this time Dragoon will be jumping a lot so some may enjoy that (laugh)

#143 Jun 13 2013 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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How good are the gears you get from dungeon and quests? Are they good enough to be dangerous to new crafters? From what I've read it seems you get a lot of gear from these activities and I'm afraid that crafters making new equips will be mostly for endgame melds.
#144 Jun 13 2013 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
Jujubah wrote:
How good are the gears you get from dungeon and quests? Are they good enough to be dangerous to new crafters? From what I've read it seems you get a lot of gear from these activities and I'm afraid that crafters making new equips will be mostly for endgame melds.


I didn't get very far crafting so I can't answer that really. It's miles ahead of anything you can get from an NPC though.
#145 Jun 13 2013 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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The crafting question brings up another question for me, namely: In the early stages of 1.0, upgrades for weapons/armor were pretty much only from crafters, I assume this has changed? From the comments on this thread, it appears that vendors sell very basic upgrades, and then quests will give gear that's upgraded from that (similar to many mmo's on the market today), with dungeon gear being a further step up from this. Yes/No?
#146 Jun 13 2013 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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That's basically true, yes. The NPC gear is decent to get you started, and there's even a low level fluff quest to get you to equip all gear level 4(?) and above. You can do it just be NPC but then you can fill in some pieces with quests and then head to the dungeons.

I don't think it'll impact crafters too much. Not every slot will be serviced by every dungeon, so maybe you have all level 15 gear except your waist and one ring are still level 4. Go to the Market Board and now you're set for a bit. It will be different for everyone, and then some people are going to want to buy full sets for alts after they get going (especially not having the quests the second time around.)
#147 Jun 13 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Jujubah wrote:
How good are the gears you get from dungeon and quests? Are they good enough to be dangerous to new crafters? From what I've read it seems you get a lot of gear from these activities and I'm afraid that crafters making new equips will be mostly for endgame melds.


The items dropped in dungeons well into 2-3 categories (I can't remember the third one):

Pink/Red Gear: These looked fairly normal by appearance, but had randomly generated stats on them. Better than what you got from NPCs
Green/Blueish: These items seems to have set stat bonuses on them and their own models.

Since we couldn't socket materia, there wasn't much of a comparison to go on.
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#148 Jun 13 2013 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Is there still auto-attack? Any rumors of low lvl to high lvl notoriuse monsters? Is there alot of cool places to explore?
#149 Jun 13 2013 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
IMFW wrote:
Is there still auto-attack? Any rumors of low lvl to high lvl notoriuse monsters? Is there alot of cool places to explore?


Auto attack exists, Yoshi-P has said it is your base damage before using any abilities.

The only notorious monsters so far are those that are sometimes encountered when doing Guildleves. The beta so far has only been Gridania and surrounding areas, but I'm excited based on what we've seen so far. The new client with the other cities and areas is only just under 6gb, and since the installation requires 12gb for launch I assume we're getting less than half of the game for beta. Lots to come!
#150 Jun 13 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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There is auto-attack. All NMs are part of FATEs right now, or individual specific ones in leves. The landscape is much much (and in Gridania's case just keep adding "much") improved. While we haven't seen the other areas, what they did to the Black Shroud alone warrants accolades.

Seriously, TBS used to be so bad I truly wonder how it was even released in the first place.
#151 Jun 13 2013 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
What struck me particularly was the improvement in variation. The copypasta environments and camps were infamously bad. But now North Shroud is quite clearly distinct from Central Shroud and East Shroud. Central has the feeling of a fresh spring forest. East feels like a more mature green summery area. North has an autumn feel to it (largely due to the more brownish ground, I suspect.)
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