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Crafting in FFXIVFollow

#27 May 11 2013 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
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Botting is usually a symptom of poorly designed progression features. People don't use bots to play for them. They use bots to work for them. The moral of the story for designers should be that if you're going to add a feature, do it right. Granted, that does present a danger of feature creep.


Yeah, that's definitely true. People bot in order to avoid doing something redundant and unpleasant. At least that's why a player will do it.

RMT on the other hand, do it to make money.

It's that second group that tends to be destructive. The first group can be sorted out with a suspension after getting caught. The second group can't be stopped so easily.

Ironically, open world pvp has been the best method I've seen for getting rid of bots grinding things like fishing or harvesting. When people can just kill them, camp them, AND be performing a public service at the same time, their production per hour goes way down. This isn't really an option in FFXIV since pvp won't work like that, but then we need something else.

Was XI's special task force effective at all?
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#28 May 11 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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XI's task force bragged impressive numbers, but the best thing they did was add aggressive high level goblins to roam the popular low-level fishing spots, where level 20 rmts would regularly bot fish.

I'll never forget the pictures of the day this was added, with PILEs of dead bodies in the Valkrum Dunes water.
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#29 May 11 2013 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Botting is a huge problem in every MMO i have played. Every time i hear from the devs we are doing this to fight bots or do that.But to be honest they can't do anything. These days bots have advanced a lot and they react to any problem accordingly.

Seen a bot in eve online that was one of the most advanced i saw out there since eves way of playing and interface is hard. It would have a set of replies when someone /tell you something or it will go into auto log out or something. Also it monitored the chat and when some words that you have flagged showed up it will go into auto log out. They even made them do moves with the mouse that would look "human" or they will let your ship in a safe place to take a 5min break as a normal human would do. I won't go deeper into why it was advanced but as i said playing in EVE is hard and complex.

My point is there will always be a new bot a better bot a bot you wont be able to find.They evolve alongside the game. From my experience the only way to truly locate a bot is from the community. Not by killing it but by reporting it. A banned user will simple stop playing the game its a win win.
#30 May 11 2013 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Botting is usually a symptom of poorly designed progression features. People don't use bots to play for them. They use bots to work for them. The moral of the story for designers should be that if you're going to add a feature, do it right. Granted, that does present a danger of feature creep.


Yeah, that's definitely true. People bot in order to avoid doing something redundant and unpleasant. At least that's why a player will do it.

RMT on the other hand, do it to make money.

It's that second group that tends to be destructive. The first group can be sorted out with a suspension after getting caught. The second group can't be stopped so easily.

Ironically, open world pvp has been the best method I've seen for getting rid of bots grinding things like fishing or harvesting. When people can just kill them, camp them, AND be performing a public service at the same time, their production per hour goes way down. This isn't really an option in FFXIV since pvp won't work like that, but then we need something else.

Was XI's special task force effective at all?


Botting isn't difficult to curtail if you simply don't add passive/inactive progression systems. A simple rule for the designer: If it's so easy that a bot can do it repeatedly, it's probably too boring for a player to do it repeatedly! You can still run into problems with active RMT, those who actually play the game, and that's a problem that can ultimately only be solved by undermining the value of the player economy. The extent to which you are willing to do that should depend on the degree to which active RMT are impacting other players, which is, again, a result of design, usually representing resource competition or artificial scarcity.
#31 May 11 2013 at 5:18 PM Rating: Default
Holy botness botman! there's a bot problem!
#32 May 11 2013 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
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Crafting needs to stay relevant all the way to the end or it doesn't have a point. It'll be a let down if end game PVE content make all of your crafts worthless causing raiding to be required if you want your character to be able to do anything.
#33 May 11 2013 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Ueno54 wrote:
Crafting needs to stay relevant all the way to the end or it doesn't have a point. It'll be a let down if end game PVE content make all of your crafts worthless causing raiding to be required if you want your character to be able to do anything.


Crafting also needs to have a point AT ALL for it to be relevant. If it's just a way to earn money, then it's probably a "work" mechanic which only serves to keep players playing longer. Given how little thought they put into their gathering classes, for example, it's hard to imagine that they had any intention of players really enjoying it. I dunno, I'm sure crafting will be fine for making money, equipment, and maybe furnishing player houses, but it is generally an afterthought that is seldom integrated into the game in any meaningful way.
#34 May 12 2013 at 12:02 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Ueno54 wrote:
Crafting needs to stay relevant all the way to the end or it doesn't have a point. It'll be a let down if end game PVE content make all of your crafts worthless causing raiding to be required if you want your character to be able to do anything.


Crafting also needs to have a point AT ALL for it to be relevant. If it's just a way to earn money, then it's probably a "work" mechanic which only serves to keep players playing longer. Given how little thought they put into their gathering classes, for example, it's hard to imagine that they had any intention of players really enjoying it. I dunno, I'm sure crafting will be fine for making money, equipment, and maybe furnishing player houses, but it is generally an afterthought that is seldom integrated into the game in any meaningful way.


I honestly wouldn't hold my breath for them to expect crafting/gathering to be anymore than a way to supply yourself materials and be a way to make money. I say this because Yoshi has mentioned that he plans on making most content be for battle classes and has since stated that we wont be able to create new characters with a starting class outside the battle classes.
#35 May 12 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
Can't it be fun in its own right?
#36 May 12 2013 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
Can't it be fun in its own right?


In theory, but in practice, eh, not really. The problem is that humans are pattern-recognition machines. We're (mostly) good at it. And that pattern-recognition is also the source of the feedback loops which allow us to have fun. Most any fun experience breaks down into this:

I want -that-. I will do -this-, and see if I can get -that-. Usually when I do -this-, I get the -that- I wanted. But sometimes, I don't! But if I keep trying, I will get -that-!

The fun stems from the things that break from the pattern--the unexpected things that we don't fully understand. It's us trying to get better at getting "that" by uncovering the patterns. As a result, we feel that we are earning, growing, and accomplishing.

When things are too predictable, they're almost guaranteed to be boring (exception: if the person is "vegging out"). If we weren't so good at pattern-recognition, then sure, I could throw the ball a million times and you'd have nearly just as much fun fetching it every time. But for it to be fun in its own right, it needs to have an appropriate measure of complexity, challenge, and uncertainty. Now, since we're talking about features that employ simple decision-making within a relatively narrow scope of possibilities, that's just not going to happen for most people.

And I hate to say it, but that's sort of the way it goes with most entertainment: the less skilled or intelligent you are, the more easily you can enjoy it. This is why children are always so excited about life in our world initially, and why they quickly become bored by it as they age. As you master the consumption of entertainment, it becomes less and less fun in its own right. For a system to be constantly fun in its own right, it needs to scale in difficulty and complexity as you master it. Of course, most systems in life are utilitarian, not necessarily intended to entertain.

So in theory, it could be fun in its own right, but that would require a far more sophisticated system than we'll see in MMO crafting/gathering for a long time.
#37 May 12 2013 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Most any fun experience breaks down into this: I want -that-. I will do -this-, and see if I can get -that-. Usually when I do -this-, I get the -that- I wanted. But sometimes, I don't! But if I keep trying, I will get -that-!


That's not a description of fun. That's a description of why anyone is motivated to do anything at all.

If you want to understand fun, you have to distinguish it from actions taken for everyday survival. Intuitively, there's a distinction you haven't hit upon. Games are an escape from everyday life. The rules are clearer and simpler, and positive results are easier to come by. This brings about feelings of euphoria and positive feedback much more frequently and predictably than you may otherwise get in the day-to-day grind. In the right measure, it's quite therapeutic and relieves stress.
#38 May 12 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Quote:
Most any fun experience breaks down into this: I want -that-. I will do -this-, and see if I can get -that-. Usually when I do -this-, I get the -that- I wanted. But sometimes, I don't! But if I keep trying, I will get -that-!


That's not a description of fun. That's a description of why anyone is motivated to do anything at all.

If you want to understand fun, you have to distinguish it from actions taken for everyday survival. Intuitively, there's a distinction you haven't hit upon. Games are an escape from everyday life. The rules are clearer and simpler, and positive results are easier to come by. This brings about feelings of euphoria and positive feedback much more frequently and predictably than you may otherwise get in the day-to-day grind. In the right measure, it's quite therapeutic and relieves stress.


Fun is merely a subset of motivation: intrinsic motivation reflects fun, while extrinsic motivation reflects work. But at a more discrete level, the only difference between the two is the person's appraisal of what they're doing (how much they want the result). So while it may not seem intuitive, conceptually the similarities between the two are critically important: even play is predicated upon perceived rewards. At a conceptual level, the "why" is the same whether the act is utilitarian or escapist: to get "that." So while there are differences between work and play, there are more similarities.

The distinction is there, however. Play and fun involve a process of discovery which depends upon elements of uncertainty. That's why I included terms like "usually and sometimes." In work, positive results often come easily, predictably, and consistently. But in spite of this, work is (definitively) not fun. Also, note that the rules are not always clearer and simpler: sometimes it is quite the opposite. I think I made all this pretty clear in the paragraphs following the quote.

This is my area of expertise, btw. My trying to make the concepts accessible doesn't reflect a lack of understanding.
#39 May 12 2013 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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All I know is that in most games, 1.0 included, crafting is never fun; whatever definition you end up using.

I'd much rather farm/gather than craft. And really that is only tolerable if you like the mindless killing of mobs, though it is an extension of main part of the gameplay.

Whether it be the WoW style - auto craft, or more involving (time consuming) FFXI style crafting, they are both more inefficient (at gaining money gear) and less "fun" than using the combat/gathering mechanics.

A large part of why crafting sucks in most games is the fact that you cannot obtain good gear for your level as most times you'll craft 1000 necklaces, so that you can craft a level 10 piece of gear for yourself. The catch is you're already level 12 and have a really good piece of gear that you bought/random dropped/or got from a quest. By default you craft for others.

Obviously if you were able to craft a cool piece of gear from the get-go, for yourself, you'd probably craft. The act of crafting wouldn't necessarily be more fun, but obtaining that gear would be.

---

Mechanically, 1.0 crafting was OK. But was bogged down by not having an AH and mired in a crappy UI. With some tweaks I can see it mechanically being "more fun" but you still need the component of "return." Getting something immediate (other than EXP) for your time.

I always hear complaints from crafters and never any positives. That mats are hard to come by, that people take advantage of them, that success rates (in games like FFXI) are too low, that you lose money crafting.

...so why do people do it? I've always found it an exercise in masochism.
#40 May 12 2013 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
...so why do people do it? I've always found it an exercise in masochism.


Probably because if you find the right niche, crafting can be more profitable than anything else. Case in point, FFXI. There were maxed leatherworkers, goldsmiths, woodworkers, etc. who could basically corner the market because getting a craft to 100 was such an incredible timesink. However, if you actually got to that holy grail (100+6), the return on your investment was pretty amazing. In XI, basically all of the wealthiest people in-game were crafters who had either cornered a market, or developed an understanding with equal level crafters to set a certain price on goods and still make a killing. It wasn't uncommon for top crafters in XI to have excess of 100m gil. That amount was unheard of for a non-crafter. So while the initial grind was unbelievably intimidating, the end result was very lucrative for the savvy crafter. Many other mmo's have had similar results.
#41 May 12 2013 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I certainly did it for the money in FFXI, but it really depends. In SWTOR, it was something to do between doing other things--the impact on regular progression was pretty small overall, but it was something to do. In GW2, it was mainly a way to level your character effortlessly, even though you ended up wasting money on it.

Crafting is usually not fun because they don't design it to be game-like. It tends to be something that, if you enjoy at all, you enjoy because of the progress towards your goal. The mystique behind crafting in FFXI certainly did it a lot of favors, for better or worse--players like myself feverishly tried to determine if there were special methods to obtain skill ups, or HQs. That was a discovery aspect of it.

Games where your skill with the crafting process actually allows you to produce things which are useful or cosmetically different tend to be much more fun, but without any real complexity or mystery in the process, and without any particularly special rewards, crafting is going to be pretty boring to most people.
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