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#77 Jul 01 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Do not make other people suffer because you over-value digital goods.


It works both ways though, I could say do not make other people suffer by trivializing worthwhile accomplishments and/or gear by making it so easily available to everyone who just showed up to earn tokens and did not truly earn it and thus under-valuing these digital goods. It is a matter of opinion and neither way is really punishing people or making anyone suffer.
#78 Jul 01 2013 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Problem: Reliance on the Random Number Generator for drops.
Solution: Activities like FATEs, dungeons, raids, and select (soloable) quests should yield currency toward gear and crafting materials specific to their level range with an option convert them higher or lower at varied ratios. Ultimately, this is to prevent situations where someone might go 0/20+ on a single item. You can still have the item drop via RNG, but people should always have an alternative path to something. As an added option, if undesired items do drop, the player/party can decide to "destroy" it and instead be rewarded with extra points.



As for making participation in a guild/linkshell/whatever mean more, I've seen a few games try to implement points for activities you otherwise do and can spend toward the guild. Sometimes it's for (temporary) buffs, occasionally it'll unlock features like a guild vault, and something I like is offering alternative sources for things like rare craft materials. There's a browser game out there called Wartune (A bit too P2W for most tastes, I'd wager), but its guild system basically ran on contribution generated by players. You had the quest/event stuff, but periodically you'd get invaders that attack your "home base" so to speak to give players a means to generate more contribution. If you have an excess of gold, you could also pay it toward the guild. In turn, the guild could buy more buildings, upgrade them and their functions, and unlock buffs. Everyone's contribution is viewable within the roster, so you can see who's been doing things for the guild and not as long as their total count keeps climbing. A feature to promote a little extra contribution involves a prize wheel. Most of the time you probably get junk, but occasionally you'll get rare/good things.

While I wouldn't say to do it the exact same way, it's a good means to allow people who can't consistently raid to still be useful to a group in their own ways, particularly if paired with the concepts Kashius mentioned earlier. One problem with Wartune, however, is I've noticed people get spread thin over guilds hoping theirs will be "the best" and, in turn, you get a bunch of weak guilds instead of a couple strong ones. Those who play more will want to leave these weaker guilds for the better ones with better buffs, while everyone else keeps trying to poach members from others to improve their ranks. Should it come to a point where a guild folds, there is means for another to "absorb" its resources and basically prevent the effort of others from becoming a waste. As such, if there is some element of contribution system implemented, a means to adopt these lesser guilds into a bigger one should be present. Perhaps it shouldn't be a 1:1 resource gain to prevent people from starting multiple guilds to potentially power up x times faster than intended, but you could also put some kind of time limit to these acquisitions, perhaps longer based on the strength of the lesser guild being taken in.

I believe Yoshi was trying to do something in the steps of your solution in 1.0. I don't know if he gave up on it or not though. I know need/greed was announced. But I don't know if some of those previous systems carried over into ARR or not.
#79 Jul 01 2013 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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Elamille wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Do not make other people suffer because you over-value digital goods.


It works both ways though, I could say do not make other people suffer by trivializing worthwhile accomplishments and/or gear by making it so easily available to everyone who just showed up to earn tokens and did not truly earn it and thus under-valuing these digital goods. It is a matter of opinion and neither way is really punishing people or making anyone suffer.

Nothing will ever be as difficult as getting the Pink Tail in FFIV, which I spent countless hours and never got, but I did encounter the Pink Puff a couple times. If the good items were easy to get people wouldn't remain interested for as long. It just makes business sense to make you work for them, whether that's good or bad. Everybody likes having the best stuff, but if everybody had the best stuff nobody would highly regard the item. I really hope the dupers don't find a loophole in this game and ruin that aspect of it like with PSO and surely others.
#80 Jul 02 2013 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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ErikHighwind wrote:
Elamille wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Do not make other people suffer because you over-value digital goods.


It works both ways though, I could say do not make other people suffer by trivializing worthwhile accomplishments and/or gear by making it so easily available to everyone who just showed up to earn tokens and did not truly earn it and thus under-valuing these digital goods. It is a matter of opinion and neither way is really punishing people or making anyone suffer.

Nothing will ever be as difficult as getting the Pink Tail in FFIV, which I spent countless hours and never got, but I did encounter the Pink Puff a couple times. If the good items were easy to get people wouldn't remain interested for as long. It just makes business sense to make you work for them, whether that's good or bad. Everybody likes having the best stuff, but if everybody had the best stuff nobody would highly regard the item. I really hope the dupers don't find a loophole in this game and ruin that aspect of it like with PSO and surely others.

There comes a point where rational people simply won't bother if they realize the "challenge" is out of their reach. Someone can try to color it as opinion, but I'd call people not partaking in content more damning than people consuming content too quickly. Rationally, if you've proven you can defeat a foe X number of times, there's no challenge in hoping you roll a 1 out of 100.
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#81 Jul 02 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's also the fact that just because something is time-consuming doesn't mean it's challenging.

Challenge is a measure of skill. There's precisely zero skill involved in bashing my face against the wall 800 times in the hopes that I'll get something out of it eventually.

Honestly, WoW has a pretty good mix going right now of RNG and currency-based systems. It's not perfect, but it's not bad. You kill bosses for drops and points. The drops are much better than what can be bought with points, but the points-bought items are still worth pursuing because they're probably better than what you're wearing. The points also provide a buffer against streaks of bad luck. Eventually, even if your thing doesn't drop, you will get SOMETHING out of what you're doing.

NM camping in FFXI was a slot machine. Yeah there was the tiny chance you'll win big, and there's the significantly larger chance that you're wasting your time.
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#82 Jul 03 2013 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
There's also the fact that just because something is time-consuming doesn't mean it's challenging.

Challenge is a measure of skill. There's precisely zero skill involved in bashing my face against the wall 800 times in the hopes that I'll get something out of it eventually.



True, but rng based drops do not have to necessarily be all about skill. The skill required would vary depending on if you are camping a level 10 NM for a lower level item such as leaping boots in FFXI or duoing chary for example, but beyond skill obtaining these drops can be a measure of dedication. A pessimist may see someone with a rng drop and say well that guy got lucky, but an optimist might decide to say man that guy really put in some work to get that item. In my opinion there was a good mix of guarantee and chance in 1.0. If you successfully completed a class quest you were rewarded with a helmet or gloves or whatever that particular quest offered. You could then supplement these guaranteed drops with rng items that were farmed/camped. Its not like theres no way to gear yourself up if u don't get lucky, a player can easily make themselves useful by just utilizing the items the game gives through questing and trading with other players.
#83 Jul 03 2013 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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I'd rather wipe 20 times to a difficult Charybdis I could pop at will before getting a Joyeuse than camping him for a week+ with competition and maybe not even getting claim. Saying stuff like, "Well, this one manta is the placeholder, so keep track of it's respawns X hours after Charybdis' last death..." for dozens of hours is skill, but it's just tedious monotony. I duoed him. I've fought him in bigger groups for people. This doesn't even tap into the third party tools people looked into to gain an even bigger edge, such as flee/position hacking, pop monitoring, seeing mob corpses, and so on. I get that there's a "rush" in beating someone else to the punch, but you're essentially advocating exclusionary content where bottlenecking potentially thousands of people on a single server will just lead to drama and the temptation to cheat. There's a reason Empyrean NMs had their respawns shortened and KIs added to gold chests. You're asking for the wrong kind of competition.

If you're looking for bragging rights to say you soloed some uber mob, than ask for an arena with time trials and progress tracking. I wouldn't even be against rewards for people completing things under certain conditions. Hell, you could even add handicaps on like no Cures or Limit Breaks. Newbies will still look up to the endgame player decked out in good gear, but let's not pretend the majority have an excess of disposable time for timed spawn NMs. Make the mobs hard to kill, not hard to even see.
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#84 Jul 03 2013 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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If you're looking for bragging rights to say you soloed some uber mob, than ask for an arena with time trials and progress tracking. I wouldn't even be against rewards for people completing things under certain conditions. Hell, you could even add handicaps on like no Cures or Limit Breaks.


This sounds really cool. You could also have ones for groups as well.

It reminds me a little of BCNMs but in a more streamlined manner where the time taken actually matters. There could be different ranks you can attain based on time taken and drop percentage goes up based on your rank. In fact you could and probably should take it a step further. Time wouldn't be the only factor in your rank. I'm not sure of various parameters you could use but surely more than just time.
#85 Jul 04 2013 at 12:32 AM Rating: Good
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Quick head pondering, but everything would basically be run off a point table.

Time would start at a set value, say a 30 minute time limit. For every second that passes, you lose X points out of Y Time total to contribute to your score.
Depending on the intent of the mob, say it's normally balanced for 3 players, fighting it with 3 would yield no bonus or penalty to the participant points. Fighting with more would subtract, less would add.
Handicaps would then add bonus points depending on the severity of the handicap. Though, you might want to limit the amount of handicaps you could impose so people wouldn't stack things that wouldn't affect their party anyway.
If the mob has special mechanics like "don't stand in the red" then if nobody does, you get a bonus here, too. Or something like not killing adds could yield points.
You could also add random events like coffers spawning or something the target could flee to to recover in order to add another layer of variety.


Either way, the leader board for the specific fights would rank on points with players able to click on and see further info like who participated and the handicaps. Something like this could reset weekly, maybe monthly, with your ranking giving rewards at the end. If the individual fights gave direct rewards, though, I'd expect some kind of entrance fee or cooldown period.
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#86 Jul 09 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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NazgulLeviathan wrote:
Quote:
If you're looking for bragging rights to say you soloed some uber mob, than ask for an arena with time trials and progress tracking. I wouldn't even be against rewards for people completing things under certain conditions. Hell, you could even add handicaps on like no Cures or Limit Breaks.


This sounds really cool. You could also have ones for groups as well.

It reminds me a little of BCNMs but in a more streamlined manner where the time taken actually matters. There could be different ranks you can attain based on time taken and drop percentage goes up based on your rank. In fact you could and probably should take it a step further. Time wouldn't be the only factor in your rank. I'm not sure of various parameters you could use but surely more than just time.


Boss Rush mode!
#87 Jul 11 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Problem: The outfits are for the most part not attractive for the best stats... (ie: Subligars and Harnesses or Robes)

Solution: Do what DCUO did and make it so that once you collect a certain style, you add that style to your collection and you can mix and match your custom outfit based on the styles you own for each slot. This would make the game much more customizable and enjoyable for women (especially my fiance, who plays with me.)
#88 Jul 11 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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Hairspray wrote:
Problem: The outfits are for the most part not attractive for the best stats... (ie: Subligars and Harnesses or Robes)

Solution: Do what DCUO did and make it so that once you collect a certain style, you add that style to your collection and you can mix and match your custom outfit based on the styles you own for each slot. This would make the game much more customizable and enjoyable for women (especially my fiance, who plays with me.)


Not just women. I like this idea a lot.

Though the existing system does lend some credibility to the NPC who gives you the armor dye quest when he mentions how hideous you look.
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#89 Jul 11 2013 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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  • List Item
  • I guess this would be the best place to post.

    I finally got to play with my chocobo today as a companion :) and I loved it but was kind of disappointed a bit.
    I was thinking I could level it up myself but it syncs to whatever level your class is. I was hoping I can breed and raise chocobos as a specific job and sell it. I thought that would have been really fun.

    I guess I can see that you don't want to have a chocobo power leveling you or reducing your exp. What do you gits think?

    Also I was really bummed that chocobos don't share your emotes lol if I danced or cheered I was hoping it would kweh or bounce around with me.

    I was thinking of levels too. I wish jobs and classes didn't share levels. Say you solo your lancer to 50 then unlock dragoon it will be level 50. Then the player doesn't know the job. I say this because we are speculating that more jobs will branch off our current jobs. Say that lancer is already 50 and drk branches off lnc its probably going top be level 50.

    What do you guys think?
    #90 Jul 12 2013 at 5:04 AM Rating: Good
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    Emote thing is certainly fluff. Could come later, but I think many would prefer primary systems get priority.

    Actual chocobo leveling with various classes I can see getting mixed reviews. More hardcore folks might enjoy it, both as something to do and a potential income stream, but as the concept of a more casual duo buddy, not having to worry about them falling behind or gimping your EXP on an alt-job is a good thing. As maybe a hybrid of the ideas, the various craft professions should be capable of making chocobo gear to both allow a custom look and maybe some niche perks that favor your play style.

    As for jobs sharing levels, again, you don't want to make the game too grind-centric. It could work if you had dozens of leveling paths to offer people variety in locations and questing, but right now it's (presumably) 3 early on with them all eventually converging mid-game and later. Multiply that grind by the number of jobs/classes and realize that not everyone is legacy and people actually unlock them around 30 and the whole "They won't know their job!" fear should technically be minimal. Yes, you'll still have people who suck no matter what, and making them grind even more EXP won't change that.
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    #91 Jul 12 2013 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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    Seriha wrote:
    Emote thing is certainly fluff. Could come later, but I think many would prefer primary systems get priority.

    Actual chocobo leveling with various classes I can see getting mixed reviews. More hardcore folks might enjoy it, both as something to do and a potential income stream, but as the concept of a more casual duo buddy, not having to worry about them falling behind or gimping your EXP on an alt-job is a good thing. As maybe a hybrid of the ideas, the various craft professions should be capable of making chocobo gear to both allow a custom look and maybe some niche perks that favor your play style.

    As for jobs sharing levels, again, you don't want to make the game too grind-centric. It could work if you had dozens of leveling paths to offer people variety in locations and questing, but right now it's (presumably) 3 early on with them all eventually converging mid-game and later. Multiply that grind by the number of jobs/classes and realize that not everyone is legacy and people actually unlock them around 30 and the whole "They won't know their job!" fear should technically be minimal. Yes, you'll still have people who suck no matter what, and making them grind even more EXP won't change that.


    Idc when they put in emotes, but i was saying that a game with so many variety of emotes should have a few emotes with your chocobo lol.

    I agree about it might be more geared for hardcore players, but i think being able to raise a chocobo would be a lot of fun. If the casual players dont want to level their chocobo, it would be nice for them to purchase one off a player. I guess if you buy a lvl 50 chocobo it wouldnt be so bad since this game is quick to level and pretty against grinding? This could tie in to my next part where would it be an issue with lvl 50 class branching to jobs. If you lvl each class all your jobs would be max level so lvl gap between your chocobo and yourself wouldnt be too big of an issue.

    imho i think leveling from lvl 30 to 50 isnt grindy at all. I got from lvl 1 to 50 on my first job in about two weeks. I haven seen people do that in a week in 1.0 (but that could of been from power leveling? anyways i didnt power level my first class/job) Yoshi did design this game to be able to teach their players how to play as you go, so wouldnt it fit the design to ease them into a new job, but not have them start all the way back to lvl 1? I guess it doesnt feel right to get a new job and start at max level to me.
    #92 Jul 12 2013 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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    First jobs aren't my worry, as they'll have a healthy amount of quests to support. However, when I think, "Buy a level 50 chocobo from someone else!" I think the seller will attempt to translate that into some timing metric if there's no feasible way to powerlevel them. Essentially, if it turns out someone needs a month to level such a bird, they're probably going to demand 2 months of basic farming time from people, effectively putting it out of range for those who might need/want the helper. With gear, repairs, and other consumables like potions and ethers already being an active expense, I'd be wary about how much you "tax" people for simply leveling.

    Anyway, I'm not against a breeding/raising system, as XI did one to some mixed success, but it's also probably best to keep the end result bound to the player with breeding being the only means to yield a tradeable egg/offspring. SE would just need to avoid situations like, "You don't have a gold chocobo? GTFO my party, noob!"
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    #93 Jul 17 2013 at 10:56 PM Rating: Excellent
    Hairspray wrote:
    Problem: The outfits are for the most part not attractive for the best stats... (ie: Subligars and Harnesses or Robes)

    Solution: Do what DCUO did and make it so that once you collect a certain style, you add that style to your collection and you can mix and match your custom outfit based on the styles you own for each slot. This would make the game much more customizable and enjoyable for women (especially my fiance, who plays with me.)


    Good call Hairspray. I really thought the system of unlocking styles for permanent use was a great idea. It had the added effect of making players go for items that they didn't need the stats at all, but they looked cool.

    If I recall correctly, Yoshida has stated that he wants the armor/clothes a character is wearing to reflect their currently equipped class. Is there a compromise here? Just make some of the heavy armor styles not available while you are a caster, and some of the mage gear styles not available while being a melee class. Some armor styles would go into a style category that would be available for any class/role.

    Anyway, I support the overall idea of setting your appearance to be based on equipment that is separate from the equipped items you are getting stats from. Example, I want to look like I am wearing an awesome pointy mage hat, but still get the stats from some stupid looking turban. I sure don't want to wear some stupid turban just because it is the best thing available right now. But of course, I will wear the stupid turban, because I'm not willing to just nerf myself for aesthetics.
    #94 Jul 30 2013 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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    Problem: Not knowing how you did compared to the other players so you can ultimately improve and make sure you're adding the most value possible to the dungeons. And not knowing who you may want to add to your friend's list if they really did well.

    Solution: Scorecard at the end of the dungeon to provide parsed information for DPS, Healing, and other relevant statistics.
    #95 Aug 01 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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    Problem: Not being able to play with your friend(s) because they are on another server.

    Answer: Megaserver! DCUO merged all of their servers about 2 years ago to create "Megaservers" - they still have the same number of actual servers (computers) running... with multiple "phases" so players are not all crammed into one server, it automatically overflows into more servers as needed and opens up additional "phases". You will not see players if they are in a different phase... but you can change phases to be in the same phase as your friends anytime you want.

    This also opens up the ability to have PVP/PVE phases so you can be attacked anytime by an enemy in a PVP phase, but not in a PVE one.

    Edited, Aug 1st 2013 12:29pm by Hairspray
    #96 Aug 01 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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    electromagnet83 wrote:
    I would like the following to make a dream MMO.

    1.) Voice chat integrated with voice changers for your character sorta like that new game "the Division" where the voice comes from the player via radio. It would be cool if you could have voice chat where "say" allows others to hear you within like 2-3 feet, "shout" 5-10 feet, and "whisper" goes directly to a player. It would make the town seem really alive when you run by and hear "snippets" of voices as you pass through a group of players.



    This was done very well in the original Phantasy Star Online Lobbies on the original XBOX.
    #97 Aug 02 2013 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
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    It would be nice if Lalafell males could have full beards. I'm trying to create Starswirl TheBearded, not Starswirl TheMustacheoed.
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    #98 Aug 11 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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    Kachi wrote:
    The potential of this thread overwhelms me.

    If more game designers would create forum threads like this, just imagine how much better their games would be.

    Also, if you name a problem, I'll offer a solution.



    I couldn't agree more, lol! Liking this thread, will favorite it! :)
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