To be honest it is really too early to talk about this kind of things. The fact remains that the game will launch as a P2P. We have a long way until we see if the game is gonna go F2P.
With that been said, if the game in fact go with a F2P model what remains is what kind of F2P will it be.
Even if it goes F2P i want it to have a subscription fee that has everything without me having to pay for this and that. Something like Age of Conan did if i am not mistaken?
In general though, if the game is good well balanced and people like it, P2P is more than enough to give good profit to SE.
And lets not forget that if SE cares for the game and the FF games at general they should try to keep it at its best shape and not go for the easy way out with a F2P model. I understand that profit is what matters but that is also how you lose fans.
Thats my 2 cents in the matter.
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catwho wrote:
As Hyrist said, the F2P model from "failed" games is usually at the demands of the investors and the shareholders. SE doesn't have to worry about either of them. They can play a long game here.
I wonder if it's also cultural. How popular are F2P games in Japan in general?
I wonder if it's also cultural. How popular are F2P games in Japan in general?
very. you might be familiar with the phantasy star online series, SEGA is making more money than they ever have on it with PSO2 using a free to play/premium/cash shop model in japan.
I would say in japan the f2p/p2p situation for MMOs is about the same as anywhere else.
f2p dominates the mmorpg market and it's easy to understand why. you can keep playing/progressing on your character without spending any money, and if you want to (and many do) you spend a ton. in the end this causes more profits overall which is why so many companies are doing it.
in japan, barely any p2p games come out anymore, the only recent one I can think of is dragon quest X, which they can only get away with because its dragon quest... and who knows how long that will last.
Edited, Mar 16th 2013 7:32am by Poubelle
Quote:
Games make a ton more money as free to play than they do as pay to play, this is well proven fact.
And I say this is well-proven bullsh*t. It completely depends on the longevity of your game. Even a quick surge of
return after switching to a FtP/cash shop/BtP model will never compensate for the profit you lose by skipping
subscription fees altogether and alienating players that are disgusted by the prospect of microtransactioning
their way to a quick victory (or see others do it); if your game had been able to retain sufficient player numbers
with a PtP model in the first place.
FtP (or rather: play for free as a second class citizen, and pay whenever you want a service a PtP game would
provide for free) is just the ultima ratio when your game is not good enough to warrant a subscription. Sometimes
this turns a dying game into a profit; and just as often, it does not. Your assertion that it is always "the" best strategy
for a company is a completely unjustified generalization. If you were correct, money-hungry Blizzard would have
changed WoW long ago.
Btw, pro-info: Player numbers in a FtP game are a completely meaningless statistic, because those who join a game
for a free ride right because they are tight on money are quite unlikely to spend a fortune in the cash shop. Try
to wrap your head around PR talk.
Edited, Mar 16th 2013 8:12am by Rinsui
Not to mention that most FFXIV gamers probably came from FFXi, a steadfast P2P game, even now that server populations are low. SE doesn't seem eager to turn that game into a cash grab, either.
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
If you deny it...well it's just white knight blindness.
I am not denying anything. I'm saying it's not likely to go F2P. There's a big difference between "never" and "not likely."
If you honestly think it's likely to go F2P, then I don't think you understand exactly how much the Final Fantasy brand means to Square Enix. Yoshi-P hasn't ruled out F2P (no good businessman ever rules anything out), but he's also made it perfectly clear that this game is not at all designed for a F2P model.
But I guess if being realistic is white knighting in this day in age, then you can call me Sir Lancelot.
Sir Lancelot boinked the King's Wife.
Call me Sir Galahad or Sir William Wallace.
Boink Boink!
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
If they were being bloody brilliant, they would have rebuilt FFXI on the FFXIV engine, migrated the playerbase to the new game entirely, and launched the FFXIV changes as a massive expansion to FFXI. New content is overrated in MMOs these days. What players really want is establishment. It's a key part of the social experience in MMOs. They want to believe that the character they're working on won't just be a forgotten waste of time, but that they will actually be recognized by other players. Even if they prefer to play solo, the recognition of their character as an extension of themselves is a major motivation for most players. If a game even looks like it might fail, that's a huge blow to player motivation.
To have a game that already enjoys establishment is an invaluable resource. If SE hadn't neglected it so much, and had tried to keep the game up to date (including a certain level of overhaul), they could have recaptured a great deal of the XI playerbase and launched it almost as a brand new game to the market. At this point, a redesign of an established game would be much more appealing to nearly everyone than a relaunch of a new game that already failed.
To have a game that already enjoys establishment is an invaluable resource. If SE hadn't neglected it so much, and had tried to keep the game up to date (including a certain level of overhaul), they could have recaptured a great deal of the XI playerbase and launched it almost as a brand new game to the market. At this point, a redesign of an established game would be much more appealing to nearly everyone than a relaunch of a new game that already failed.
Kachi wrote:
If they were being bloody brilliant, they would have rebuilt FFXI on the FFXIV engine, migrated the playerbase to the new game entirely, and launched the FFXIV changes as a massive expansion to FFXI. New content is overrated in MMOs these days. What players really want is establishment. It's a key part of the social experience in MMOs. They want to believe that the character they're working on won't just be a forgotten waste of time, but that they will actually be recognized by other players. Even if they prefer to play solo, the recognition of their character as an extension of themselves is a major motivation for most players. If a game even looks like it might fail, that's a huge blow to player motivation.
To have a game that already enjoys establishment is an invaluable resource. If SE hadn't neglected it so much, and had tried to keep the game up to date (including a certain level of overhaul), they could have recaptured a great deal of the XI playerbase and launched it almost as a brand new game to the market. At this point, a redesign of an established game would be much more appealing to nearly everyone than a relaunch of a new game that already failed.
To have a game that already enjoys establishment is an invaluable resource. If SE hadn't neglected it so much, and had tried to keep the game up to date (including a certain level of overhaul), they could have recaptured a great deal of the XI playerbase and launched it almost as a brand new game to the market. At this point, a redesign of an established game would be much more appealing to nearly everyone than a relaunch of a new game that already failed.
It's a good thing they didn't do that!
Because if they had done that on FFXIV's engine as you said, they would have destroyed FFXI by dropping everyone who didn't have a powerful enough PC (including PS2 and 360 players), and then adding further insult to injury, they would have ruined their reputation among the remaining PC players with the horrible engine they chose to run the game on.
There would have been almost no new players to the game both because no one is interested in jumping into a EQ-style MMO these days, no matter how modernized (as UO's Richard Garriott and EQ's Brad McQuaid found out in 2007 with Tabula Rasa and Vanguard). It wouldn't bring in the substantial number of FF players who don't have time for a hardcore MMO. Not that it would matter because the scathing reviews FFXIV got would have actually been the final nails in FFXI's coffin. Not even Yoshida could have reversed that catastrophe, in my opinion.
And worst of all, FFXI currently is still making money for SE while FFXIV is being reborn from the ashes. If FFXI was the one that was turned into FFXIV, all of that revenue would be lost while it sat broken for years.
Sure FFXI can be modernized, but only in small bits here and there. A whole new engine and the assets to go with it is tremendously expensive and prone to bugs and failures; it's not a cheap and easy thing to do. Asking people to upgrade their hardware to keep playing the new version of FFXI will invariably drop people for good, and it won't really bring in enough new people to replace them. The problem with FFXI isn't really that it doesn't look good enough, it's that its play-style is fundamentally old school from a different era in MMOs that the next generation isn't interested in, and if you're going to change that, you may as well start all over.
Of course they could keep servers open for those players; that's no question. Also, FFXI isn't as hardcore as it once was, and new content certainly would not be. The problems you're describing have simple solutions.
We'll see how it does, who knows, maybe SE won't be content with 500k-ish people world wide this time, we honestly don't know.
To me, it will be a success if it can hold me for more than 3 months...and if they continue to put these references and cameos in.
To me, it will be a success if it can hold me for more than 3 months...and if they continue to put these references and cameos in.
Kachi wrote:
The problems you're describing have simple solutions.
That's precisely my point.
Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
The problems you're describing have simple solutions.
That's precisely my point.
Finally an agreement!! REJOYCE!! PEOPLE FROM ZAM!!!
Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
The problems you're describing have simple solutions.
That's precisely my point.
Well, then you should email Yoshi-P and Wada straight away. I'm sure once they hear what you have to say they'll be all over it!
I find it hard to believe that SE hasn't literally put every idea on the board already. If they're going in this direction it's because they feel it's the best solution for them to fix their monumental mistake. All I'm saying is there's a reason they're doing things the way they are. Whether you feel those ideas are the best or not will I suppose determine your individual satisfaction. But to keep coming back to this whole "They're doing it all wrong" argument is inane.
Edited, Mar 16th 2013 9:07pm by LebargeX
Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
If they were being bloody brilliant, they would have rebuilt FFXI on the FFXIV engine, migrated the playerbase to the new game entirely, and launched the FFXIV changes as a massive expansion to FFXI. New content is overrated in MMOs these days. What players really want is establishment. It's a key part of the social experience in MMOs. They want to believe that the character they're working on won't just be a forgotten waste of time, but that they will actually be recognized by other players. Even if they prefer to play solo, the recognition of their character as an extension of themselves is a major motivation for most players. If a game even looks like it might fail, that's a huge blow to player motivation.
To have a game that already enjoys establishment is an invaluable resource. If SE hadn't neglected it so much, and had tried to keep the game up to date (including a certain level of overhaul), they could have recaptured a great deal of the XI playerbase and launched it almost as a brand new game to the market. At this point, a redesign of an established game would be much more appealing to nearly everyone than a relaunch of a new game that already failed.
To have a game that already enjoys establishment is an invaluable resource. If SE hadn't neglected it so much, and had tried to keep the game up to date (including a certain level of overhaul), they could have recaptured a great deal of the XI playerbase and launched it almost as a brand new game to the market. At this point, a redesign of an established game would be much more appealing to nearly everyone than a relaunch of a new game that already failed.
It's a good thing they didn't do that!
Because if they had done that on FFXIV's engine as you said, they would have destroyed FFXI by dropping everyone who didn't have a powerful enough PC (including PS2 and 360 players), and then adding further insult to injury, they would have ruined their reputation among the remaining PC players with the horrible engine they chose to run the game on.
There would have been almost no new players to the game both because no one is interested in jumping into a EQ-style MMO these days, no matter how modernized (as UO's Richard Garriott and EQ's Brad McQuaid found out in 2007 with Tabula Rasa and Vanguard). It wouldn't bring in the substantial number of FF players who don't have time for a hardcore MMO. Not that it would matter because the scathing reviews FFXIV got would have actually been the final nails in FFXI's coffin. Not even Yoshida could have reversed that catastrophe, in my opinion.
And worst of all, FFXI currently is still making money for SE while FFXIV is being reborn from the ashes. If FFXI was the one that was turned into FFXIV, all of that revenue would be lost while it sat broken for years.
Sure FFXI can be modernized, but only in small bits here and there. A whole new engine and the assets to go with it is tremendously expensive and prone to bugs and failures; it's not a cheap and easy thing to do. Asking people to upgrade their hardware to keep playing the new version of FFXI will invariably drop people for good, and it won't really bring in enough new people to replace them. The problem with FFXI isn't really that it doesn't look good enough, it's that its play-style is fundamentally old school from a different era in MMOs that the next generation isn't interested in, and if you're going to change that, you may as well start all over.
I agree 100% with you. FFXI had its course in the game industry and still goes. You can't just take it down and rebuild something anew from it. You don't know if the players want that. And if they did you would still need to re make the game engine. Overall i believe if they wanted to revive the FF XI they would have to remake the whole game all over again. Something they did with making a new game already. But again i don't know how the players would react in a complete overhaul of their loved game.
In my books its more profitable to have 2 games with lets say 100k subscribers than have 1. Because if they did remake XI and they had failed with it then SE would have been left with nothing in its hands. So you could say that XI is the safety pillow for SE.
Quote:
If they were being bloody brilliant, they would have rebuilt FFXI on the FFXIV engine, migrated the playerbase to the new game entirely, and launched the FFXIV changes as a massive expansion to FFXI. New content is overrated in MMOs these days. What players really want is establishment. It's a key part of the social experience in MMOs. They want to believe that the character they're working on won't just be a forgotten waste of time, but that they will actually be recognized by other players. Even if they prefer to play solo, the recognition of their character as an extension of themselves is a major motivation for most players. If a game even looks like it might fail, that's a huge blow to player motivation.
To have a game that already enjoys establishment is an invaluable resource. If SE hadn't neglected it so much, and had tried to keep the game up to date (including a certain level of overhaul), they could have recaptured a great deal of the XI playerbase and launched it almost as a brand new game to the market. At this point, a redesign of an established game would be much more appealing to nearly everyone than a relaunch of a new game that already failed.
To have a game that already enjoys establishment is an invaluable resource. If SE hadn't neglected it so much, and had tried to keep the game up to date (including a certain level of overhaul), they could have recaptured a great deal of the XI playerbase and launched it almost as a brand new game to the market. At this point, a redesign of an established game would be much more appealing to nearly everyone than a relaunch of a new game that already failed.
In my opinion, that's yet another baseless overgeneralization. While I enjoy some continuity (that's why I log in less now than three weeks ago), there's a limit to it. FFXI, I've been there, I've done that. And my old character well deserved to die in time to be fondly remembered.
There's a beauty to starting "fresh" that I find hard to be copied by even the greatest overhaul; which, btw, might be one of the main liabilities of ARR. But hey. Yoshi pretty much shattered the world, changed every class, introduced new ones and even added new races. There's little more you can ask for.
In that regard, I am very happy I made the choice not to play the game till the bitter end; because by now,"going back" feels at least a little like starting fresh.
I think most would feel content with starting fresh on a new player server, personally. It's true they'd have to rebuild FFXI from scratch, but they'd know what they were building, which is nothing to underestimate. Again, you leave the old servers up for people who want to play on lower end hardware or don't want a new gameplay experience. Nobody loses out.
Of course that's not going to happen, and I doubt it was seriously considered in the discussion of ARR. But my point is that if they put in the resources to turn FFXI into a modern game while creating "fresh start" servers and gameplay, then porting over character data for those who wanted to, it would likely do well.
Of course that's not going to happen, and I doubt it was seriously considered in the discussion of ARR. But my point is that if they put in the resources to turn FFXI into a modern game while creating "fresh start" servers and gameplay, then porting over character data for those who wanted to, it would likely do well.
Honestly, all the XI folks really want is an updated graphics engine. We were promised a new UI on PC, modernized with movable layouts and stuff, but that hasn't happened yet. I'd like higher quality models and stuff.
But if someone said XI as you know it is shutting off, here's a HQ game with all the same plots and all the same stuff and OH YEAH you're now level 1 again, I wouldn't touch it with a fifty foot pole.
XI has meaning to me because of all the sh*t I went through with my friends, but also because of everything I've accomplished in it with those friends. I'm a relic bard with all twenty jobs leveled up and all expansions and major content completed. Telling me I have to start over as a level one would be taking all that away from me. Such a thing might get the people who get before Abyssea came out, but it would be giving a giant @#%^ YOU to all the players who kept on playing after the level cap went up to 75.
No, they made the right decision by making Eorzea a distinct world from Vana'diel, and they also made the right decision to let folks keep their existing characters from 1.0 with all their gear and titles intact, should they so desire.
Edited, Mar 17th 2013 4:57pm by catwho
But if someone said XI as you know it is shutting off, here's a HQ game with all the same plots and all the same stuff and OH YEAH you're now level 1 again, I wouldn't touch it with a fifty foot pole.
XI has meaning to me because of all the sh*t I went through with my friends, but also because of everything I've accomplished in it with those friends. I'm a relic bard with all twenty jobs leveled up and all expansions and major content completed. Telling me I have to start over as a level one would be taking all that away from me. Such a thing might get the people who get before Abyssea came out, but it would be giving a giant @#%^ YOU to all the players who kept on playing after the level cap went up to 75.
No, they made the right decision by making Eorzea a distinct world from Vana'diel, and they also made the right decision to let folks keep their existing characters from 1.0 with all their gear and titles intact, should they so desire.
Edited, Mar 17th 2013 4:57pm by catwho
Huh? That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying you would keep your character data entirely. Basically, rather than FFXIV, it would be FFXI with a massive expansion on a new engine with updated gameplay. All optional--anyone who wants to stay on old servers is welcome to.
Quote:
Huh? That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying you would keep your character data entirely. Basically, rather than FFXIV, it would be FFXI with a massive expansion on a new engine with updated gameplay. All optional--anyone who wants to stay on old servers is welcome to.
Who would join a game that was considered so-so for ten years?
The rabid fans? Gosh, even the transition to ARR is met with a
very stiff breeze of resistance by those in the beta I heard.
Just imagine someone went and tempered with the last
refuge of "oldschool leets"? The horror... THE HORROR!
My guess would be about 90% of the existing FFXI playerbase and enough new players and previously departed players to make the game a success. Again, relying on a new gameplay experience. Though to be honest, I don't have my thumb on the pulse of the current player population in FFXI. I think what kept most players going in FFXI was the sense of meaningful progression and the community-based play. Provided that transferred to the "FFXI 2.0" I don't think you lose those players, and you've got sufficient content to keep new players, even once-removed players, happy for years.
I understand how it doesn't sound appealing at first, and I understand the challenges that would go with it. I also think there's a payoff to it that's being underestimated. Which is all totally, pointlessly speculative, but even if I'm completely wrong, it's more interesting to discuss it than nothing.
I understand how it doesn't sound appealing at first, and I understand the challenges that would go with it. I also think there's a payoff to it that's being underestimated. Which is all totally, pointlessly speculative, but even if I'm completely wrong, it's more interesting to discuss it than nothing.
Kachi wrote:
My guess would be about 90% of the existing FFXI playerbase and enough new players and previously departed players to make the game a success. Again, relying on a new gameplay experience. Though to be honest, I don't have my thumb on the pulse of the current player population in FFXI. I think what kept most players going in FFXI was the sense of meaningful progression and the community-based play. Provided that transferred to the "FFXI 2.0" I don't think you lose those players, and you've got sufficient content to keep new players, even once-removed players, happy for years.
I understand how it doesn't sound appealing at first, and I understand the challenges that would go with it. I also think there's a payoff to it that's being underestimated. Which is all totally, pointlessly speculative, but even if I'm completely wrong, it's more interesting to discuss it than nothing.
I understand how it doesn't sound appealing at first, and I understand the challenges that would go with it. I also think there's a payoff to it that's being underestimated. Which is all totally, pointlessly speculative, but even if I'm completely wrong, it's more interesting to discuss it than nothing.
I can think of one person who actually wanted this for XIV. Out of all the hundreds of people who played. He seriously thought that XIV was going to be XI with updated graphics, and SE would close all our XI accounts and force us into XIV, only for it to be a "surprise! updated FFXI!" for everyone. He was crushed when he found out that wasn't the case, but I think the rest of us were relieved.
XI is still doing quite well on its current engine. PS2 support for the US has been dropped and for Japan I think it's going to end once SE pulls the plug on PS2. The FFXI expansion due at the end of the month is going to be the last game ever released for PS2, and I expect that Sony will announce end of life support for the PS2 once the PS4 is on the shelves. At that point, SE can stop trying to deal with the nightmare of ten year old hardware and we'll only be faced with "Xbox 360" limitations XD
There have been quite a few groups who have formed on various XI servers, including mine, who have tried to recreate the "old school FFXI" feel, with a six man static party on a formal job set up. Those groups usually dissolve within a month. Sure, you get the nostalgia hit, but you also get all the things that were awful about old school FFXI parties - 4k exp/hour, death without reraise, having to quit when one person needs to leave, etc. Also, SE screwed up a lot of the old camps by dumping level 100 mobs into them for the people who didn't purchase Abyssea to have a place to exp. So even if you get a 6 man level 40 static, you sure as hell aren't going to be in the basement of Crawler's Nest any more.
catwho wrote:
[quote=Kachi]. Also, SE screwed up a lot of the old camps by dumping level 100 mobs into them for the people who didn't purchase Abyssea to have a place to exp. .
Wait. what? They really did that?
Kiipo wrote:
catwho wrote:
[quote=Kachi]. Also, SE screwed up a lot of the old camps by dumping level 100 mobs into them for the people who didn't purchase Abyssea to have a place to exp. .
Wait. what? They really did that?
I'm not sure Dangruf Wadi is a place you would go to XP...but yes they did revamp some of the low level areas with higher level mobs deeper in. For example in Dangruf Wadi, if you go to the upper level where that one spout drops you off there are now high level gobbies there instead of the lower level versions.
Modified zones:
- Garliage Citadel Basement - Level 100 ish bats and various other nasty things
- Ranguemont Pass: Level 90 goblins, bats, various other things
- Crawler's Nest: Basement completely redone with level 90+ funguars and flies and beetles
- Eldieme Necropolis: Basement completely redone with level 85-100 skeletons and other things
- Aforementioned Dangruf Wadi
All mobs can be sneaked or invis'd past, and while they are along the route to various quest ???s and paths to other areas, they are not directly in aggro range. Aside from Garliage and CN, none of them were really used for camps, but both of those area's usual exp camps were totally switched up. Now Garliage and CN's usable camps are preferred Grounds of Valor camps from 30-50ish. No one bothers with the level 90-100 mobs.
- Garliage Citadel Basement - Level 100 ish bats and various other nasty things
- Ranguemont Pass: Level 90 goblins, bats, various other things
- Crawler's Nest: Basement completely redone with level 90+ funguars and flies and beetles
- Eldieme Necropolis: Basement completely redone with level 85-100 skeletons and other things
- Aforementioned Dangruf Wadi
All mobs can be sneaked or invis'd past, and while they are along the route to various quest ???s and paths to other areas, they are not directly in aggro range. Aside from Garliage and CN, none of them were really used for camps, but both of those area's usual exp camps were totally switched up. Now Garliage and CN's usable camps are preferred Grounds of Valor camps from 30-50ish. No one bothers with the level 90-100 mobs.
Quote:
Aside from Garliage and CN, none of them were really used for camps, but both of those area's usual exp camps were totally switched up. Now Garliage and CN's usable camps are preferred Grounds of Valor camps from 30-50ish. No one bothers with the level 90-100 mobs.
And this is the reason I could never return to FFXI.
I wouldn't have the slightest clue what I was supposed to do. All my knowledge of how the game works is woefully out of date.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
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