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#27 Jan 16 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Default
I always enjoyed 1.0, even in Beta days. if it wasnt the game and its content it was the community. I have just as many fond memories in events in XIV as I did 7 years in XI. I dont pay attention to any XIV haters, hard to hate on a game you haven't even seen.
#28 Jan 16 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
catwho wrote:
It doesn't have to pull from just the casuals. It also has the entire Final Fantasy fan base to pull from. There are folks that played XI but then stopped, folks that skipped XI entirely but are interested in XIV, and folks like me that played XI and XIV concurrently for a while and are chomping at the bit.

The FF fans are the ones that SE really has to hook, not just casual MMOers. The casuals will jump to the next shiny that a game company releases in six months regardless. The FF fans will play XIV until XV or the next flavor of XIII comes out, assuming 2.0 doesn't suck monkey balls.


See this is where fact and fiction diverge, FF fans do not enjoy FF online, FF has sold more than 100 Million games, yet their online games combined have not sold more than ONE MILLION GAMES! That is a fact, FFXI launched on the ps2 when the PS2 was Hot! This is closer to the time when SE was still riding the wave of Square, way closer to FFVII/VIII/IX/X than we are Now. To put the future of FF XIV on a player base that has never been there, is not only risky but flat out stupid, at neither time has this "Final Fantasy Fanbase" ever embraced an online Final Fantasy. What makes you think they will this time around ?

Also XI players will not jump ship to XIV, they did not at release, they will not now, so you have a splintered FF online fanbase between two games, w/o casuals to supplement both or really jump into one, you run the risk of taking from players from your successful game that cost you almost nothing to run, and was a profitable enterprise, to move then to a new enterprise that is deep deep in the red, with the probability that it will crash and burn, and having those players not return to the other one.

If SE Focuses only on the imaginary FF fanbase that has never been there, they will fail harder than swotor.
#29 Jan 17 2013 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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Isn't the most important thing for them to do to first aim to recapture the 300k~ player deficit between FFXI's peak and current population? ie. winning back the people who used to play FFXI but now don't for whatever reason. I think for this reason they shouldn't stray too far from XI.

The Japanese MMO market hasn't progressed that dramatically, WoW doesn't even exist here. An revamped FFXI would sell just fine if it were developed competently. There's plenty of potential players to attract without cannibalizing XI (as proved by the fact that XI's population used to be 500k). There's no need to invent the wheel.
#30 Jan 17 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dizmo wrote:
Isn't the most important thing for them to do to first aim to recapture the 300k~ player deficit between FFXI's peak and current population? ie. winning back the people who used to play FFXI but now don't for whatever reason. I think for this reason they shouldn't stray too far from XI.

The Japanese MMO market hasn't progressed that dramatically, WoW doesn't even exist here. An revamped FFXI would sell just fine if it were developed competently. There's plenty of potential players to attract without cannibalizing XI (as proved by the fact that XI's population used to be 500k). There's no need to invent the wheel.


Current FFXI players will tend to stick with FFXI, even if FFXIV copied heavily from FFXI (and I dare say especially if it did). Fact is, there's so much working against convincing a current FFXI player to switch to FFXIV for good. They'd have to start over in a game that most of their friends aren't playing (they're playing FFXI), and even if they stick with FFXIV awhile, the content will run out (it's a new game) and they'll find themselves drifting back to FFXI and unsubscribing from FFXIV (at the very least to save money) sooner or later.

Former FFXI players is a potential source of players, but many of them left because FFXI was too demanding. So if you copy heavily from FFXI and make it too demanding, former FFXI players will soon quit FFXIV for the same reasons they left FFXI in the first place.

Current non-FFXI playing Final Fantasy fans could also always have joined FFXI, but they didn't because it was too demanding. If FFXIV heavily clones FFXI, there's still no convincing this substantially large group to change their mind and play Final Fantasy Online.

And that leaves the young'n's, who've had nine years of WoW being the standard from which all MMOs are built. You may as well hand a kid a cassette-tape Walkman for their music needs as to convince them to play an MMO like FFXI.

So, I'm convinced that FFXIV has to do its own thing. A new experience that "feels like Final Fantasy" and is as friendly to use as WoW would cast a wide net and bring in players from all backgrounds. It's the only chance this game has for a future.
#31 Jan 17 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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Also, SE doesn't want FFXI players to quit that and play FFXIV. They want those players to play both games (as is evidenced by the special combo pricing model they offered for a while).

If, at some point, SE wanted to do an FFXI-2 and overhaul the engine, THAT'S when you want FFXI players to drop and play that one.
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#32 Jan 17 2013 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Also, SE doesn't want FFXI players to quit that and play FFXIV. They want those players to play both games (as is evidenced by the special combo pricing model they offered for a while).

If, at some point, SE wanted to do an FFXI-2 and overhaul the engine, THAT'S when you want FFXI players to drop and play that one.


I don't think discount offers to play both games really work. It was tried with EQ and EQ2, but it still failed to convince most EQ players to stick with EQ2, most of whom happily ended their EQ2 sub.

For something like an engine overhaul, you'd do it WoW: Cataclysm style and force the revamp on everyone rather than split the populace with a sequel. A FFXI-2 works only as a complete replacement of FFXI-1, much like FFXIV 2.0 is completely replacing FFXIV 1.0.
#33 Jan 17 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
[
And that leaves the young'n's, who've had nine years of WoW being the standard from which all MMOs are built. You may as well hand a kid a cassette-tape Walkman for their music needs as to convince them to play an MMO like FFXI.

So, I'm convinced that FFXIV has to do its own thing. A new experience that "feels like Final Fantasy" and is as friendly to use as WoW would cast a wide net and bring in players from all backgrounds. It's the only chance this game has for a future.

SE is just going to fail if it gets greedy and tries to entice everyone instead of reinforcing its niche it built with XI though. SE has no chance competing in the generic MMO market (it barely even advertises its products in the west). Besides, again, no one's heard of WoW here (Japan), I grant that the game shouldn't be unnecessarily time consuming, but other than that I see no need to use WoW as a base. They have their own (very successful) game to base themselves from. And indeed they should, to stay loyal to their existing consumer base.

All these new MMOs are flopping one after another because they focus too much on emulating their competitors instead of developing their own strengths.

Quote:

Former FFXI players is a potential source of players, but many of them left because FFXI was too demanding. So if you copy heavily from FFXI and make it too demanding, former FFXI players will soon quit FFXIV for the same reasons they left FFXI in the first place.


This conclusion would make sense if its population quickly dropped from point of release, but its population was at half a million during the middle of its life and was fairly stable. The most obvious reason for the population dropping is natural attrition due to the fact that many people get bored of the same game after a few years, and the fact that it's hard to get back into a mature game once you've quit for a while.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 8:17pm by Dizmo

Edited, Jan 18th 2013 2:11am by Dizmo
#34REDACTED, Posted: Jan 18 2013 at 9:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.
#35 Jan 18 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful


I don't know anyone who was actually in the alpha that said this. (And quite a few of my friends broke their NDA on the sly *cough*)
#36 Jan 18 2013 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
preludes wrote:
FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.

The reality is that they got lucky with FFXI, in that they hooked a brand new mmo audience. This is almost impossible to replicate today. Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful and that is not a successfull mmo in the making at all. People bail really quick on mmos that don't cut it these days, GW2 is a very good indication of this.


Why are you still here then? Just curious.
#38 Jan 18 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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preludes wrote:
FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.

The reality is that they got lucky with FFXI, in that they hooked a brand new mmo audience. This is almost impossible to replicate today. Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful and that is not a successfull mmo in the making at all. People bail really quick on mmos that don't cut it these days, GW2 is a very good indication of this.



Find it hard to believe you were in the alpha and can call it awful. If you were, you're clearly breaking the NDA..
#39 Jan 18 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
Unless you personally were in the alpha, which you cannot admit you were even if you were, I'm going to take any opinion of yours with a grain of salt.
#40 Jan 18 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
Fixed it, no NDA breaking. I've not been informed that the NDA for the alpha has been lifted.
#41 Jan 18 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
Wint wrote:
preludes wrote:
FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.

The reality is that they got lucky with FFXI, in that they hooked a brand new mmo audience. This is almost impossible to replicate today. Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful and that is not a successfull mmo in the making at all. People bail really quick on mmos that don't cut it these days, GW2 is a very good indication of this.


Why are you still here then? Just curious.


Because I choose to be, I don't need to give a reason to you as to why I post on a forum I'm a member of.

Is this your personal fansite or a professional forum of which you are paid staff?
#42 Jan 18 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Smiley: oyvey

To get back to the OP discussion. I think for every mmo i played based on the "hype" i've always been horribly disappointed... Recently purchased the Mists of Panderia xpac for WoW because everywhere I go on the interwebz theres an ad saying its the best ever blah blah blah...

So i buy it, play it for 2 weeks, and realize I spent $40 for 5 levels and a farm Smiley: glare
#43 Jan 18 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
About 13-14 years ago what always got hyped up was virtual worlds. There were dozens of them, most of them crappy, but each of them had its own little "hook" that made it "the most immersive/chat/social blah blah" ever. Some were paid access (one of those is still around) some were free to play.

Worlds Chat had the most interesting revenue model, I thought. VRML web access was free, but if you wanted a custom designed avatar, you had to pay $20 for the designer software. They sent you a CD and with that you could change your avatar with color slider bars, fully customizeable VRML clothing, as many times as you wanted.

The problem with those is that, aside from talking with people, there was really nothing to do. (Worlds Chat had David Bowie World....) The hype to those reached its peak with Second Life, which shined brightly for all of two years before petering out. Now you never really hear anything about it any more.
#44 Jan 18 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Excellent
preludes wrote:
Wint wrote:
preludes wrote:
FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.

The reality is that they got lucky with FFXI, in that they hooked a brand new mmo audience. This is almost impossible to replicate today. Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful and that is not a successfull mmo in the making at all. People bail really quick on mmos that don't cut it these days, GW2 is a very good indication of this.


Why are you still here then? Just curious.


Because I choose to be, I don't need to give a reason to you as to why I post on a forum I'm a member of.

Is this your personal fansite or a professional forum of which you are paid staff?


I was just asking, no need to be a jerk about it.

This is a professional forum, but I am the paid admin for this piece of it and it's my job to keep the forums on topic and foster an environment that encourages people to not only post and share in a general enthusiasm for the game, but to be able to do so without having to worry about trolling from other members.

You haven't had a good thing to say about this game, and your attitude is not only poor, but you aren't even interested in making this game worth playing. As I see it, you only post here to rile up those of us who think the game has a chance, and if you think I will let you do that without any repercussions then I guess we'll see how that ends up.
#45 Jan 20 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Klibe wrote:
I think the biggest problem with games today is people are always putting a game down before they even get their hands on it. Everyone always has to compare a game to another one and not even play the game as the developers intended it.


Are you saying this is a problem because all of this hot air people are blowing on message boards discourages others from trying new games? If that's what you mean, I understand your concern, but I think the much bigger problem is with the people who listen. Why should anyone let what some degenerate on the internet says dictate how they feel about a game?

Moreover, unjustified hatred towards a game one hasn't even played is nothing new. I remember reading an issue of EGM in which an irate fan, before the game was even released to the public, wrote in and chewed out one of the reviewers for giving Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker a 9.5 instead of a 10. Granted, that was more hatred towards the reviewer than the game, but the principle is the same. The guy was livid over something who couldn't truthfully have formulated an opinion on because he hadn't played the game yet.

To answer your question, I can't remember the last game I played that I didn't hear something negative about before its release, but if you're going to keep your finger on the pulse of game culture, that just comes with the territory. There's no one one forcing you to take what they say seriously.
#46 Jan 20 2013 at 10:58 AM Rating: Default
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catwho wrote:
Quote:
Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful


I don't know anyone who was actually in the alpha that said this. (And quite a few of my friends broke their NDA on the sly *cough*)


The only reason is because people are excited for ARR to be like a standard MMORPG you've been playing countless times, nothing new and nothing original. It's like being excited for Rift.



Pontipy wrote:
preludes wrote:
FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.

The reality is that they got lucky with FFXI, in that they hooked a brand new mmo audience. This is almost impossible to replicate today. Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful and that is not a successfull mmo in the making at all. People bail really quick on mmos that don't cut it these days, GW2 is a very good indication of this.



Find it hard to believe you were in the alpha and can call it awful. If you were, you're clearly breaking the NDA..


Google image search Mindflayer or Soulflayer, don't call someone out on NDA breech when you can find more on ARR Alpha than what SE wanted to release.

Edited, Jan 20th 2013 9:03am by Theonehio
#47 Jan 20 2013 at 7:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Klibe wrote:
I think the biggest problem with games today is people are always putting a game down before they even get their hands on it. Everyone always has to compare a game to another one and not even play the game as the developers intended it.


If XI was your first MMO then it goes without saying that you had no expectations going in and I think that is the case for almost everyone here. Most people have positive reactions when they're able to experience something for the first time and they're more willing to overlook flaws they find. When something comes along 10 years later and doesn't improve on the first offering, what else would you expect?

You only really get to impose your intention on players who haven't experienced something before. This is why many people have a special place in their gamer heart that is reserved for XI despite it's flaws. Now that there are standards for MMO elements and XIV is beaten in almost all categories, it's going to be compared to the other options.



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#48 Jan 20 2013 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
When something comes along 10 years later and doesn't improve on the first offering, what else would you expect?


Thank you, Sadly if you say this to the people who are frothing at the mouth for ARR (especially on official forums) you'll get torn to shreds. People rejecting logic sucks :\

Right now, all ARR is doing is improving on Final Fantasy XIV, a game that hardly improved on Final Fantasy XI. All they really had to do was take XI and bring it up to code then go **** crazy with new ideas, it would have went over a lot better whether people want to admit it or not.
#49 Jan 20 2013 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
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You seem to be of the opinion that everyone will be making the decision to play this game based on a measurable scale. For myself and many more like me it's not like that. I'm a fan of FF. I'm a console gamer and I want to play so I'm going to. It's also an emotional decision for many people. It sounds like many of those people are on the official forums. And you should know that tryin to apply logic to an emotional decision is an exercise in futility.

Maybe you should just let people be excited and have their fun without being a p00py pants lol. Smiley: grin
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